HOBBY GRADE TEST KITS CAN OUTPERFORM ICP MEASUREMENTS…REALLY??

[Dan_P]

Oh, it'll never be rigorous. And I didn't mean to imply otherwise. But at least it would be interesting. Would enjoy getting to see Moonshiners performance in some Coral grow out contests.

I feel that too many variables are uncontrolled in a grow out competition to provide any useful information or insight into complicated phenomenon such as coral growth. As for being fun, hell yes

In a useful grow out contest, each participant would also grow a second coral using someone else's method to control for the hobbyist level of implicit knowledge about coral husbandry. I believe some reefers are just really good and will grow coral well no matter what system they use.

 

[MnFish1]

I feel that too many variables are uncontrolled in a grow out competition to provide any useful information or insight into complicated phenomenon such as coral growth. As for being fun, hell yes

In a useful grow out contest, each participant would also grow a second coral using someone else's method to control for the hobbyist level of implicit knowledge about coral husbandry. I believe some reefers are just really good and will grow coral well no matter what system they use.

I proposed a couple different ways to do it that would be quite rigorous.

 

[areefer01]

I feel that too many variables are uncontrolled in a grow out competition to provide any useful information or insight into complicated phenomenon such as coral growth. As for being fun, hell yes

In a useful grow out contest, each participant would also grow a second coral using someone else's method to control for the hobbyist level of implicit knowledge about coral husbandry. I believe some reefers are just really good and will grow coral well no matter what system they use.

Not that you are looking for any validation with the statement in bold but I agree with this. Some hobbyist are just really good at what they do. In tune, better, know how to adjust, whatever it is but as you said it wouldn't matter what they are doing and it would still look equally great.

 

[rtparty]

Not that you are looking for any validation with the statement in bold but I agree with this. Some hobbyist are just really good at what they do. In tune, better, know how to adjust, whatever it is but as you said it wouldn't matter what they are doing and it would still look equally great.

Taricha and I had a conversation once on here about simply having A method was likely more important than THE method

 

[Dan_P]

Taricha and I had a conversation once on here about simply having A method was likely more important than THE method

That is an important idea for controlling quality.

Making adjustments to a system or method is more likely to achieve improved performance. Having no method means too many uncontrolled variables that hide cause-effect relationships by random variation or noise in the data, and frustratingly, no improvement. It is possible that a method is limited and performance can only be improved so far. No problem. Just switch methods when the current method performance levels off.

 

[jda]

These type of deals always end up getting won by the folks with the best lights. Stability is second... which most of that work is done before you start, or not done and you can never catch up. Parameters could be a full factor off from ideal and it won't matter in a few months for something like this.

Reef in 4d. Let the 4th dimension be 3-5 years. That can actually show you something.

The last one of these that I saw was full dosing via triton/alktronic and apex vs hand test and dose 2 part and the guy with the MH won and his Triton quit a few weeks into the 6 months and he guessed at dumping in baking soda, epsom salt and driveway melt since he couldn't use any test kits.

 

[Thales]

The company that wants to win such a contest should fund it. x number of tanks with all the basic equipment the same (ish), but the husbandry methodology differs.

 

[taricha]

The last one of these that I saw was full dosing via triton/alktronic and apex vs hand test and dose 2 part and the guy with the MH won and his Triton quit a few weeks into the 6 months and he guessed at dumping in baking soda, epsom salt and driveway melt since he couldn't use any test kits.

"The Chosen One"

 

[Reefahholic]

Im assuming you're implying (maybe I'm wrong), that you could take these corals and using ICP dosing, greatly improve them? That would be an interesting experiment IMHO. The coral in the tank could serve as its own 'control'. Monitor tank x for 4-6 weeks (pick your time period), then start only changing parameters based on ICP and compare after a certain time period. At least I think that would be a better measure than merely taking pictures of a nice tank and saying here are the results?

I see it almost weekly. Here’s the experiment right here. New guy comes in with very poor coral health or average coral health and a few months later all the corals are getting much better.

 

[Reefahholic]

This implies there has never been a good looking tank with awesome corals, ever.

No this implies that I had the ESV tank. It works, but keeping the whole chemistry in check works better.

 

[Reefahholic]

Poor people like Jason Fox, Tyree, ORA, and countless others stood no chance at creating good looking corals.

The problem with that assumption is that the average reefer isn’t Jason Fox, Steve Tyree, or a whole who’s been in the game for years like ORA.

 

[Reefahholic]

Also I noticed that if you take ICP test after water change I end up with odd results, it has been recommended to take sample 3 days after water change.

Collect your sample water at least 48 hrs “after” a water change. Or before any dosing for that day.

 

[Thales]

Yes, let’s focus on results from this point forward. I just fragged so more Miyagi tort to sell. Those darn inaccurate ICP-MS.

More blue:

I have this coral, one one close, that looks pretty much like that in my system. Without tweaking elements. I'll try to remember to get a pic

 

[Thales]

I see it almost weekly. Here’s the experiment right here. New guy comes in with very poor coral health or average coral health and a few months later all the corals are getting much better.

But we see that all the time in a lot of different methodology groups.

 

[Thales]

The problem with that assumption is that the average reefer isn’t Jason Fox, Steve Tyree, or a whole who’s been in the game for years like ORA.

The average reefer is trying to combine the easy parts of different methods based on what 'some guy' told them somewhere. It seems like it should be of little suprise that once they start sailing in a particular direction, that things perk up. The 'rip clean' folks say mucht the same as you about their methods

 

[Reefahholic]

I do not believe that with ICP only, reef tank would actually flourish. I use ICP and I like the tool.

I agree that is goes beyond ICP of course. Other things have to be done. The tank needs to be stable and have good nutrient management to pull the best colors. That’s assuming they have basic dosing in check.


Even though ICP and Trace element dosing is kinda an advanced approach, reefers are still having a lot of luck despite being new to the hobby. Most just need some guidance with nutrient management. Others need somewhere to ask a ton of questions where they can get solid answers. We’re keeping water chemistry, and it’s no secret that if you correct it things do better as long as the fundamentals are nailed down.

 

[Dan_P]

The company that wants to win such a contest should fund it. x number of tanks with all the basic equipment the same (ish), but the husbandry methodology differs.

Yes, that’s the way to do it. This gives me a dark, conspiracy-like theory. So, with no data, my conjecture is

“companies do not want to generate scientific data and share it with customers”

The thinking behind this thought is that data generated from a well controlled competition could end up sowing doubt about company claims and shake consumer confidence. Of course, a less controlled competition that keeps the company claims secure would have the reefing community down on their necks from the start.

Someone needs to win a lottery and invest it aquarium research.

 

[Reefahholic]

But we see that all the time in a lot of different methodology groups.

Sometimes, but usually not that extreme or as often. I don’t see that much on the forums.

 

[JCOLE]

Reef in 4d. Let the 4th dimension be 3-5 years.

 

[Reefahholic]

The average reefer is trying to combine the easy parts of different methods based on what 'some guy' told them somewhere. It seems like it should be of little suprise that once they start sailing in a particular direction, that things perk up.

Correct, it never surprises me when somebody uses good ICP-MS data with the appropriate calculator to fix all the low or missing elements that things perk up. They just need that initial help and directions from the right place.