Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[taricha]

Great thread, lots of good information! I just took a sample from my Biocube 32 will brown algae-like growth on sandbank and rock,

Here is the image, I am thinking this is Gymnodinium spp.. They are highly motile with light microscopy and measure about 20 microns x 30 microns. Can anybody confirm this genus and have any luck getting rid of them? I may start the metronidazole treatment and add sock filters, but I would need the 1 microns type to skim these out right?

!!! Beautiful pics, and I can say the pics definitely rule out all the major kinds of Dino that others have had bloom in their tanks.

Gymnodinium is a pretty good stab at it, but I'd assumed Gymnodinium were planktonic only, not attaching to surfaces. I'll look more later.
Any chance of a video?
And pics of the bloom in the tank?

I'm really curious what makes your system different than most other hobbyists to get a novel bloom type. I mean yeah there are 2000+ Dino species, but only a handful bloom in hobbyist tanks.

Are you running your bio cube skimmerless? Where did your livestock, rock etc come from? Where are you located?

In the meantime, I'd say that UV and or strong water column filtration (if you trust the scale on your pics, then 10 microns should be small enough) ought to reduce cell numbers. I'd also approach the nutrient side like any other dinos, until proven otherwise.

 

[Derek Clifford]

What a nice surprise. I thought a new brown area in the sand was a return of Dinos.
Couldn't be happier.

 

[Jolanta]

So whats new guys? Im back with you, I received my old corals from restarted tank to a quarantine and it was all ok without dinos till maybe a week ago, I checked in microscope and they are ostreopsis again so I think some came back with my corals,the good news is I put them all in nano tank and my big tank is clean. The strange thing is my nano tank dont have any filtration, only filter socks, nitrates are at 0.2 and phosphate at 0.2, all was ok when I had fishless tank but when I addes snowflake pair it all started. Yesterday I was looking some videos that they found the cure fos ostreopsis in spain with 25 ml peroxide for 100 l of water every 12 h but I would prefer natural first, bought nitrate aditive than arrives tuesday and I hope it works. I only have some lps, anemone, mushrooms, zoas in my nano and for now they are all ok, my snails and shrimps are ok too, so it seems its not so toxic yet.

 

[domination2580]

For what's it's worth, my tank had been at 20 trates and .03 p04 and still had dinos, even had gha take over, and still had dinos

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For what's it's worth, my tank had been at 20 trates and .03 p04 and still had dinos, even had gha take over, and still had dinos

IMO, the issue is not directly the nutrients, but whether those nutrients allow something to grow in competition with the dinos for either space or a needed trace element.

If you are doing water changes or trace element dosing, and the explanation for dino decline in higher nutrients relates to trace elements dropping, then higher nutrients alone will not have a useful effect in treating for dinos.

 

[Mikeand Mel]

Read the first 40 pages and last 2.
Alot of tanks experiencing Dinos seem to have PO4 bottoming out.
I think I'm experiencing a Dino problem(No microscope) but, my Nitrate had always been 0, PO4 has always been high
.07 at lowest .52 at highest. Now .37 dosed sodium NO3 now Nitrate 4.5.
Temp 78.6
Salinity 1.026 Milwalkee digital
Ph 7.92
PHO4 .37 Hanna low range
NO3 4.5 Red Sea
Had what I thought were dinos(see photo), and bubble algae.

Added sodium nitrate solution 2x.
Added 2 doses of Vibrant Sunday and Wednesday.
Wednesday blackedout tank with moving blankets.
Uncovered yesterday....tank looks better....lowered light to blue 7 hrs
whites 5.....fish and corals look good but have quite a bit of bubble algae.....any thoughts?

Now have a coup[le of these on glass, gyre not sure what they are

 

[mcarroll]

IMO, the issue is not directly the nutrients, but whether those nutrients allow something to grow in competition with the dinos for either space or a needed trace element.

It's maybe somewhat of a gray area?

Reportedly (see links on first post) dino's are terrible at low-concentration phosphate uptake. (The same may be true of them for dissolved nutrients in general.)

Being bad at getting nutrients says to me that relative to other "algae" competitors for dissolved nutrients in the tank, they're easily starved.​

Unlike more desireable algae which die off under the same circumstances, starvation provokes our normally-invisible dino's into blooming and other very bad behavior.

As you point out, there's also "the case for nutrients" and allowing competition too....

That healthy competition would be the "normal" microbial food web we might find in any healthy reef tank.

The successful growth of that web when a tank is new seems to be especially dependent on consistently available (but carbon-limited) dissolved nutrients.

To that end, the organisms in the microbial web go to great lengths to conserve and recycle most nutrients that are likely to become limiting – directly themselves, or in concert with other members of the web. (see their role in the nitrogen cycle, phosphate cycle, potassium cycle, silicate cycle, et al.)

This is why some mature reef tanks can have lots of growth but no detectable nutrients....much like a rainforest, there are nutrients, but it's not in the soil or water – it's in the biomass. ​

 

[taricha]

@Docjpath

Gymnodinium is a pretty good stab at it, but I'd assumed Gymnodinium were planktonic only, not attaching to surfaces. I'll look more later.
Any chance of a video?
And pics of the bloom in the tank?

You nailed it. Gymnodinium it is.
And there are gymnodinium that are benthic or exhibit benthic behavior in some circumstances.

 

[Mikeand Mel]

After reading almost the entire Vibrant thread.....is the consensus that rather than eliminating Dinos the glucose is actually fueling other algae out competing the Dinos?
Just dosed more Sodium Nitrate to bring NO3 above 5 ppm. Should I worry PO4 is .37?

 

[xilez]

Do not use Vibrant (especially if you used dry rock). I am convinced it 100% caused my dino issues.

 

[Mikeand Mel]

Really? Why do you thinkl that?

 

[Docjpath]

@Docjpath


You nailed it. Gymnodinium it is.
And there are gymnodinium that are benthic or exhibit benthic behavior in some circumstances.

Thanks Taricha for confirming my Dinos are Gymnodinium and for the compliments on my images. I have a quality Olympus scope with camera and I calibrated it with micrometer, so measurements are accurate.

My Biocube is running with inTank mod and Tunze 9001 skimmer. I will have to make a mod to my filtration system to put 10 micrometer filter on inTank mod, but I might do that. Currently, I have been keeping lights off for several days and most of the gunk has either died off or more likely gone to cyst stage. I have begun adding Nitrogen and Phosph to my tank as previously they were both 0 ppm. Nitrates have come up to 5 ppm, but have not checked my Phosph in a few days.

I am starting a 120 tank soon, so right now I am only keeping fish in the Biocube. I used LifeRock from Carib sea, which I would not do again on the new tank. I still don’t have coralline algae after 5 months, sigh. I will try to take some more samples next week, when I go back to work and see if the little critters are still there.

 

[Docjpath]

Thanks Taricha for confirming my Dinos are Gymnodinium and for the compliments on my images. I have a quality Olympus scope with camera and I calibrated it with micrometer, so measurements are accurate.

My Biocube is running with inTank mod and Tunze 9001 skimmer. I will have to make a mod to my filtration system to put 10 micrometer filter on inTank mod, but I might do that. Currently, I have been keeping lights off for several days and most of the gunk has either died off or more likely gone to cyst stage. I have begun adding Nitrogen and Phosph to my tank as previously they were both 0 ppm. Nitrates have come up to 5 ppm, but have not checked my Phosph in a few days.

I am starting a 120 tank soon, so right now I am only keeping fish in the Biocube. I used LifeRock from Carib sea, which I would not do again on the new tank. I still don’t have coralline algae after 5 months, sigh. I will try to take some more samples next week, when I go back to work and see if the little critters are still there.

One more thing, I live in central Texas, got my fish from LFS. I purchased my first coral from LFS, second corals from quality online store, second corals from Ok online store, and 3rd corals from quality online store. Unfortunately, all of my corals (Zoas and Leptast) never opened and died rather quickly, presumable from Dino toxins now . I don’t know where the Dinos came from unfortunately.

 

[taricha]

IMO, the issue is not directly the nutrients, but whether those nutrients allow something to grow in competition with the dinos for either space or a needed trace element.

If you are doing water changes or trace element dosing, and the explanation for dino decline in higher nutrients relates to trace elements dropping, then higher nutrients alone will not have a useful effect in treating for dinos.

There are other good reasons to dose nutrients to act against dinos.
The trace element competition spurred on by elevated nutrients increasing growth of many classes of producers is one mechanism that dosing nutrients supports, but there are others.
Other mechanisms...
Possible allelopathic suppression of dino growth from other producers. (documented in some species of Diatoms and Algae).
Possible grazing of dinos by small benthic inverts (documented in cilates, pods, crustaceans etc) that would increase in population with more robust algae growth.

...and like Mcarroll said...

Unlike more desirable algae which die off under the same circumstances, starvation provokes our normally-invisible dino's into blooming and other very bad behavior.

toxin production and heterotrophy (and toxins killing other organisms to free up scarce nutrients) are all found to increase in low-nutrient circumstances.
So adding nutrients not only moves system toward stable healthy circumstances, but just as importantly away from unhealthy ones.

After reading almost the entire Vibrant thread.....is the consensus that rather than eliminating Dinos the glucose is actually fueling other algae out competing the Dinos?
Just dosed more Sodium Nitrate to bring NO3 above 5 ppm. Should I worry PO4 is .37?

I don't think the glucose or whatever media is used to culture their bacteria are all that significant, but Carbon dosing ought to be avoided during dino outbreak.
don't worry about high P but let it come down biologically as you add N and it processes out. no need to keep it that high.

Do not use Vibrant (especially if you used dry rock). I am convinced it 100% caused my dino issues.

Vibrant doesn't CAUSE dinos, but similar to any algaecide it would greatly reduce biodiversity and ought to be avoided, for reasons discussed earlier.

I have a quality Olympus scope with camera and I calibrated it with micrometer, so measurements are accurate.

My Biocube is running with inTank mod and Tunze 9001 skimmer. I will have to make a mod to my filtration system to put 10 micrometer filter on inTank mod, but I might do that. Currently, I have been keeping lights off for several days and most of the gunk has either died off or more likely gone to cyst stage. I have begun adding Nitrogen and Phosph to my tank as previously they were both 0 ppm. Nitrates have come up to 5 ppm, but have not checked my Phosph in a few days.

I'm super-jealous of your scope!
Blackout often causes benthic dinos to disperse throughout the water to all parts of the system, sometimes it decreases their total numbers, but in large part it just kicks the can down the road to be dealt with later. It actually takes quite a disturbance to cause a large dino population to enter cysts. (small numbers of cysts are produced more readily).

...I am starting a 120 tank soon, so right now I am only keeping fish in the Biocube. I used LifeRock from Carib sea, which I would not do again on the new tank. I still don’t have coralline algae after 5 months, sigh....
One more thing, I live in central Texas, got my fish from LFS. I purchased my first coral from LFS, second corals from quality online store, second corals from Ok online store, and 3rd corals from quality online store. Unfortunately, all of my corals (Zoas and Leptast) never opened and died rather quickly, presumable from Dino toxins now . I don’t know where the Dinos came from unfortunately.

Ok, there seems to be a LOT going on unusual in your tank.
No coraline growth at all. Instantly dead hardy corals (insta-kill on zoas is unusual).
Fish only tank - (not by choice?) What's your lighting?
That level of inhospitality to corals is not just water parameters, but something more. Toxins may be a good candidate.
Also, when I say zero hobbyists have posted having this dino, I mean literally zero out of the hundreds of posted cases over years. Please don't risk transferring it into wider circulation. Not that you would. Just saying it out loud.
As your case is so weird, I'd be happy for as much info as you can provide. Probably best by PM to not clutter things.

 

[Docjpath]

LOL, yes I was absolutely not going to transfer any livestock or water in old tank to start new one. I will start the 120 with complete new setup, but am debating using live rock or dry rock this time. I have Carib sea life rock, so not sure if that might be a reason for no coralline algae growth?

I did do a lighting upgrade in the tank with StevesLeds, have been running them 40% blue and 20%white until Dino outbreak.

 

[brandon429]

Though dinos are increasing in the hobby, imo online trading is boosting it above early 2000's levels (not much action) they're still in the minority of possible hitchhikers. I posted the other day that valonia or an aiptasia is more likely than invasive dino strains... among random traders and non quarantiners.

Ive never encountered invasive dinos in 18 straight years of frag trading at lfs/ never done a single trade online though, so perhaps risk is minimized not sure. I don't take in from others tanks very often, mine pumps out.

However LFS sourcing worked out, I sure got some aips and some valonia, but invasive dinos Ive never even seen in my whole city. Im sure there are a few by now.

am only stating that as an etiological assessment...how they get in and express (the invasive strains) its not that invasive strains of dinos are common in tanks and then we do things to suppress them.


Pico reefers don't have similar constant dino issues and most pico reefs are using strong export as the backbone of the system, not test level feedback/nutrient modulation...yet they source frags just like the large tankers... that means something about both expression and etiology in my opinion. its at least interesting to factor as future means of battle are made. Large tankers must have a way to balance out the accessibility differences of that much surface, I cant wait until a symbiotic approach to both manual removal and sourcing of competition is found and made consistent.

whoever finds out how to beat dinos consistently, across tanks, deserves something mighty significant in reefing that's for sure. I rank it as most risky scourge, above neomeris, because anyone can just reach in and grab a neo rock and chunk it and be done.

 

[taricha]

Though dinos are increasing in the hobby, imo online trading is boosting it above early 2000's levels (not much action) they're still in the minority of possible hitchhikers. I posted the other day that valonia or an aiptasia is more likely than invasive dino strains... among random traders and non quarantiners.

Ive never encountered invasive dinos in 18 straight years of frag trading at lfs/ never done a single trade online though, so perhaps risk is minimized not sure. I don't take in from others tanks very often, mine pumps out.

However LFS sourcing worked out, I sure got some aips and some valonia, but invasive dinos Ive never even seen in my whole city. Im sure there are a few by now.

am only stating that as an etiological assessment...how they get in and express (the invasive strains) its not that invasive strains of dinos are common in tanks and then we do things to suppress them.

Kinda disagree. Bubble algae ma be a good example. I think Dinos are about as common as bubble algae. Is it in every tank? No. Will you encounter it at some point if you are in this hobby for a few years? Yeah, almost certainly. Unlike bubble algae, which are only halted by killing every last one, Dinos are held in check by having a tank that isn't ripe for a takeover.

in my small town for instance.
Currently all The SW tanks at the new nice chain fish shop in my town look like this (pic from a couple weeks ago).

...and they have constantly since July when I first went by a month or two after they opened.
To see which strains of invasive dino you can get from this shop (more than one, yay!) check my post from July linked here.

everywhere? no. But every single person who bought any SW item from this shop in the past 6 months also got dinos with their purchase. There are 2 SW shops in town, and that one has 5x the traffic of the older one.
I just feel like they are common. Maybe I'm wrong.
Even when tanks are non-symptomatic, people with scopes can find dino cells.

 

[Sycoticrealm]

Pods eat dinoflagellates.
We have to simulate the environment much as possible and adding nature's natural resource has helped me maintain my tanks.
Just my opinion I may be off subject but i don't have time to read or feel like reading 36 pages of posts lol.

 

[Sycoticrealm]

Velvet a type of dinoflagellates also i wish i had a scope I'd like to setup a system to add velvet and see if there a pod species that eats them.

 

[brandon429]

Will you encounter it at some point if you are in this hobby for a few years? Yeah, almost certainly

had posted 18 yrs


and that includes working with countless nanos in person as well. I've never had a reef friend get dinos to see in person in all that time. Not one keeper on my YouTube page ever got dinos. That's since 2006, all the comments are logged.

Also, scan the entire picos forum at nano-reef.com for recurring dino invasions. We have busier care methods there than most, I think it's 100% dino free for six years now? The whole forum. There might have been some that went unaddressed but not many i recall

As soon as tank sizes increase up to a point where full tank access is too much work, dino problems increase

Large tankers need development in regards to dino control, they are not willing to do repeat sandbed and rock scrubs and full water changes like pico reefers can.

If we ever did encounter the invasive strains, then the suppression method we employ during normal tank care took care of aggregation, something has to explain no dinos in 18 yrs knock on wood right about now

I think research in nutrient addition/adjustment and competition communities against dinos is a large tanker's best hope... a few good years of targeting medications such as dino xal and peroxide and algaefix hasn't done much for the scourge, they help about 30% of the time in my opinion.