Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Bret Brinkmann]

I don't think dinos would mind growing on some nice new live rock. Granted the picture I posted earlier may not have been dinos but I did do the first dino test which indicated dinos. I have the brown strings that bubble and siphoning them out I can watch them recluster in a bucket. Working on getting a better picture but it may be some time with the holidays and all.

I have 1 lbs live rock per gallon and a 4 inch sand bed. Tank size is 29 gallons with a 10 gallon refugium with no rock and a 5 inch sand bed. And I have dinos and cyano like crazy. :mad: I was running an ULNS but reading everyone's experiences has convinced me to add phosphates and nitrates. Need to get good test equipment first though.

I used to have pods like crazy but they all are gone now. Still have some amphipods but no copepods any more. Never had a fish in this tank ever. Tank is about two years old now. No fish is probably part of my problem. Maybe I could just dump some food in to create something other than snail detritus? Cerith and astrea snails doing great though. Just ramped up my CUC to help with the algae. Some are still sickly from acclimating. Doing everything I can to help them pull through. ;Vomit

 

[Docjpath]

Great thread, lots of good information! I just took a sample from my Biocube 32 will brown algae-like growth on sandbank and rock, which I cannot get rid of with H202. Here is the image, I am thinking this is Gymnodidium spp.. They are highly motile with light microscopy and measure about 20 microns x 30 microns. Can anybody confirm this genus and have any luck getting rid of them? I may start the metronidazole treatment and add sock filters, but I would need the 1 microns type to skim these out right?

Sorry, I have been jumping back and forth from this thread to the original one on metronidazole and realized that that method does not work now. So my question to mcarroll or others is to first ID my images (please see first post) of what I think is Gymnodinium and second is for someone to confirm that increasing PO4 and NO3 is the way to treat my Dino problem.

I am new to reef tanks and have been trying to keep both PO4 and NO3 to zero using RODI water and carbon and gfo, because I thought clean was better. Most of my snails have died and every time I add new corals that are dead within a few days, so I think my Dinos are producing a strong toxin. My 2 clowns and 1 gramma are doing great but that is it. My tank is about 4 months old and is a Biocube 32. I am buying 12o gallon soon, so don’t want to make same mistake twice on this.

Procedure if these are Dinos (please correct me if I wrong)
Feed fish often
Dose PO4 and NO3, currently at 0 on both
Black out for 3 days not needed, run light schedule as normal?
Stop using gfo and carbon
Let GHA grow, as I have been trying to kill it with H202 treatments
Leave sand bed alone, don’t remove
No water changes (I am confused on that one)

Anything else? I truly appreciate any help anyone would give on this.

 

[High Plains Reefer]

for many weeks I have had this brown gunk I suspected it was dino now it is turning into cyano I have a undetectable po4 level I havent checked nitrate but I suspect it is also zero should I pick up neophos and spectracide or now that it is turning to cyano is it too late I have started feeding flake reguarly (I use instant ocean reef flakes) any other sugestions? is the metro treatment worth it or should I just get some nutirents back into the water column

 

[Derek Clifford]

Procedure if these are Dinos (please correct me if I wrong)
Feed fish often
Dose PO4 and NO3, currently at 0 on both
Black out for 3 days not needed, run light schedule as normal?
Stop using gfo and carbon
Let GHA grow, as I have been trying to kill it with H202 treatments
Leave sand bed alone, don’t remove
No water changes (I am confused on that one)

Anything else? I truly appreciate any help anyone would give on this.

Dose phosphate and nitrates. Use the targets mentioned in the thread previously.
Stop the GFO.
Continue with GAC carbon. It will help with the dino toxin.
you can manually remove the GHA, if possible.
I used to syphon the dino off the top of the sand bed. over time it took some of the sandbed away.
Get advise here on if a UV will help you.

 

[sfin52]

@lesbrers a filter sock that filters to 10 microns is what you need and than put water back into the tank. Blow off all rocks daily.

@Docjpath yep it sends them to cyst form. I did it. Than mcarrol pulled me here. Nutrients are the centerpiece of a treatment plan. Life needs them. Your corals may be dying because of lack of nutrients. Po4 and No3. My corals struggled till I put po4 back into the system. Now my corals are growing and are colorful again. Water changes as long as you are not adding salt. Filter the water through 10micron sock and put water back into the tank. The trace minerals can fuel growth and don’t stop granulated carbon. Do stop all nitrate and phosphate remover ie carbon dosing and gfo.

Good luck sir.

 

[sfin52]

@mcarroll the sticky is great. Looks like it has helped and helping more people.

 

[Pandy]

I believe I’ve recently been dealing with Dinoflagellates amphidinium in my ZEOvit tank. My method of treatment has been completely anecdotal from researching on the ZEOvit forum, and I dose a concoction of KZ bacteria and ‘cleaner’ products, and so far it’s had a very positive effect. It’s taken daily dosings for weeks but the tank has improved drastically.

I had a big nutrient spike once the main phase of the dinos started dying out, which bought along Cyanobacteria - but that sort of helped my case in that it smothered the rocks so suffocated any remaining dinos still on the rocks. I’m now down to the last remaining patches in my sand bed but I’ll continue to dose for a good few weeks after I feel the dinos aren’t visible anymore - just incase.

Testing times for sure, I’ve come so close to throwing the towel in on a few occasions!

Would just like to update and say that I believe that I am dinoflagellate ‘outbreak’ free! The daily pounding with my concoction has left me with no visible signs of them, and I’ve performed two water changes since and noticed no return.

Now to get rid of the cyano...

 

[mcarroll]

for many weeks I have had this brown gunk I suspected it was dino now it is turning into cyano I have a undetectable po4 level I havent checked nitrate but I suspect it is also zero should I pick up neophos and spectracide or now that it is turning to cyano is it too late I have started feeding flake reguarly (I use instant ocean reef flakes) any other sugestions? is the metro treatment worth it or should I just get some nutirents back into the water column

If you haven't already, check out the first post and at least give it a scan. Lots of context and handy info there.

There's a test you can do that has no equipment requirements to see if you have dino's or something else.

If it turns out you have dino's, there's a link to the microscope guide ($10 and up – no fear) and LOTS of pictures to compare with microscope photos you can take with a very inexpensive toy microscope and your cell phone. Lots of GREAT folks here to help all along the way, including with the photo ID.

If it is/was dinos and now cyano is taking over already, then that's a good sign. Establish good nutrient levels proactively for a little while and your might not have to do any more than that.

It sounds likely that you'll need the liquid fertilizers....usually not a big expense.

Keep up with healthy feedings – don't overfeed, and don't withhold food. Flakes are fine, but not ideal to serve as the sole source of food – arguably that's mostly an issue for your fish though. I'd try to integrate something live and something frozen into your routine (without feeding more overall).

 

[Derek Clifford]

A big thanks to all in here that gave me guidance, directly or indirectly.
Dosing phosphate and running UV were the 2 main actions. The system has never looked better and the corals are growing really well.
I had a phosphate limited system that Dinos thrived in and had a big impact to all other life. The dinos destroyed my CUC, although my sand sifting starfish never seemed bothered. There may be something in the reference to the sand sifting starfish, if somebody knowledgeable wants to read more into it.
Now I have Nitrate ~5 and phosphate ~0.1.
A microscope and nutrient test kits should be the first thing anybody buys when they think they are battling Dinos.
I honestly think that a few people on here have given a real insight to Dino control that the world deserves to recognise. I spent many months without an understanding or plan until I found this thread. I am now proud to show my aquarium to friends and family again. Thank you!

 

[tenurepro]

A big thanks to all in here that gave me guidance, directly or indirectly.
Dosing phosphate and running UV were the 2 main actions. The system has never looked better and the corals are growing really well.
I had a phosphate limited system that Dinos thrived in and had a big impact to all other life. The dinos destroyed my CUC, although my sand sifting starfish never seemed bothered. There may be something in the reference to the sand sifting starfish, if somebody knowledgeable wants to read more into it.
Now I have Nitrate ~5 and phosphate ~0.1.
A microscope and nutrient test kits should be the first thing anybody buys when they think they are battling Dinos.
I honestly think that a few people on here have given a real insight to Dino control that the world deserves to recognise. I spent many months without an understanding or plan until I found this thread. I am now proud to show my aquarium to friends and family again. Thank you!

Congrats D!
I am also very happy with my post-dino battle tank. Uv + maintaining 8 ppm No3 and 0.2 ppm po4 + removing most of sand did the trick for me.
Don’t mean to spam but here is what the tank looks like 2 month after starting treatment. You’d be pressed to spot signs of dinos. This thread has been a tank saver!

 

[orr2003]

Looking for some ID help. @mcarroll Probably not the greatest videos but I only have 400x microscope. Not sure what all the tiny cells are but I think I see one or two dinos. Little tank background... my main display which is full of sps frags and mini colonies seems to be completely free of this brown slime with bubbles, but I have a clownfish broodstock tank hooked into the whole system and it is becoming covered in this brown slime. Not sure if it is dinos, diatoms, cyano or all three? My tank has always tested zero nitrate and phosphate. My sps have never seemed to grow and some started becoming extremely pale so I started dosing KNO3 about 3 weeks ago and started feeding heavy frozen foods. Since then the SPS have really started to show improvement in growth and color but now I am getting this terrible brown slime with bubbles in the broodstock tank. I had quite a bit of Dictyota in the main display and nothing seems to eat it so I am currently using Algaefix which seems to be killing it slowly. I am on my 4th dose of Algaefix currently. I realize the dictyota was comsuming the availabe N and P before which caused the SPS to take the hit. My PO4 is currently at .02 per Hanna checker and I have a bottle of Flourish Phosphorus coming tuesday to start dosing. My nitrate is about 10ppm per Salifert and I dose KNO3 couple times a week. I am sure the dying dictyota is releasing nutrients and possible toxins which seems to trigger this brown slime. Just looking for a postive ID on what the slime is so I can take a correct path of action.
Thanks

 

[JaimeAdams]

A couple questions and I'm sure that it has already been said, but I can't find it.

So, if we give up and decide that a reboot is the best shot, what is an effective way of sterilizing everything prior to starting back up? Will running the tank with straight tap water work? How much bleach would one need to add to a system to make sure any encysted dinos are dead?
@mcarroll @reeferfoxx

 

[reeferfoxx]

A couple questions and I'm sure that it has already been said, but I can't find it.

So, if we give up and decide that a reboot is the best shot, what is an effective way of sterilizing everything prior to starting back up? Will running the tank with straight tap water work? How much bleach would one need to add to a system to make sure any encysted dinos are dead?
@mcarroll @reeferfoxx

I never did get to reboot. I started a small nano for a temporary fish home during the reboot but the tank ended up cycling through the dinos and now the tank is dino free.

However, dinos are present almost everywhere so I think taking extra sterilization precautions isnt completely necessary. A simple tap water and some bleach would do just fine.

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

A couple questions and I'm sure that it has already been said, but I can't find it.

So, if we give up and decide that a reboot is the best shot, what is an effective way of sterilizing everything prior to starting back up? Will running the tank with straight tap water work? How much bleach would one need to add to a system to make sure any encysted dinos are dead?
@mcarroll @reeferfoxx

I thought I read a while back that a few minutes in a fresh water dip will kill off the dinos.

 

[Beardo]

I thought I read a while back that a few minutes in a fresh water dip will kill off the dinos.

I thought tbe same thing so tried it out. It doesn't kill cysts and some species of dinos survived... but my dips were only 30 seconds to 1 minute long

 

[JaimeAdams]

I thought I read a while back that a few minutes in a fresh water dip will kill off the dinos.

Yeah.... I read that too and wish that I never had....

Freshwater dip for several minutes does NOT kill all dinos.

 

[reeferfoxx]

@JaimeAdams
If you haven't tried adding some live rock and/or fiji mud or garf grunge, I recommend doing so.

Some things to consider.
-I started a nano to house fish during the reboot. I waited for the new live rock to cycle the sand (I added to the nano). This took about a month. Though, I didn't ever test ammonia and nitrites. I waited for diatoms.
-Since I was rebooting the tank, for 30 days I stopped dosing alk, ca, no3, and po4. No water changes. Only fed fish. Alk fell from 8.5dkh to 6.6dkh. Ca fell from 450 to 390. Live rock had already been added prior to giving up.
-Tank started to rebound so I resumed dosing alk and ca only. Then broadcasted a table spoon of fiji mud.

I will say in that 30 days my Coolia spp. disappeared and some kind of different dinos started growing on the glass. That little outbreak didn't last long, though. Tank is looking real good. Only cyano started popping up due to the detritus build up. I've since been cleaning it with bi-weekly water changes and everything is doing great. Po4 stays at 0.03 and No3 naturally climbs. Highest I saw it was 10ppm. Hope this helps. Now I have no idea what to do with the new nano that i don't want to take care of.

 

[Bret Brinkmann]

Finally got some better pictures and a few videos. My scope is only 250X though. Still not sure what they are. I also got some shots of some green stuff growing in my sand about an inch down. Diatoms maybe? I did the coffee filter test and then sampled from what made it though. I could see them reforming clumps easily when I had a light shining through the glass. I can say that this issue started around the time I had a lot of red hair algae growing. I read somewhere that when the phosphates are higher than the nitrates, this can happen. So I started using several times the recommended amount of PhosGuard in my reactor. It did get rid of the red hair algae, but that was about the time I first started noticing the dinos. They began to take over and were growing on everything except my coral. After reading this thread (or at least most of it), I stopped using the PhosGuard altogether. It's been about two weeks and they are already on the decline. I have done some manual removal but not much. I haven't even started dosing Phosphate. I suspect I am getting it in the tank through the Phyto Feast and it's coming out of my live rock. Two days ago I measured only 2 ppb on the ULR. Can't wait to start dosing and see what happens then. Here are the pictures. Can't get the videos to work but they basically move back and forth. So spinning, just two steps forwards then two steps backwards.

From my sand bed 1" down. Diatoms maybe? 250X

Dinos zoomed out.

Dinos zoomed in. 250X.

Mostly diatoms? One brown dino that was moving positioned slightly above the very center of the image. 250X

 

[mcarroll]

@orr2003 That looks like a healthy mix of lots of things. If a sample from the frag system you mentioned looks like all-dino's then I'd do your NO3 and PO4 dosing into that tank, but other than that you're probably on the right track. Keep the system from being N or P limited again. Keep up with manual removal of the slime and make sure you're running at least a little activated carbon to keep toxins from building up in the water. Is there a CUC in the frag system? Pods? How are they all doing?

@JaimeAdams I've heard of some folks doing crazy things to live rock for (re)startup, but I can't speak to whether or how well any of them work. Avoidance of the conditions that cause them to bloom (N and/or P starvation in almost all cases) is a good preventative even if they are in the system. In essence you're farming out the task of "dealing with" the dino's to the rest of your Make any and all nutrient changes to the new tank (i.e. livestock additions, filter additions, et al) small and make them well-spaced out (~month). This limits the potential of any algae bloom, regardless of type. This also gives more than the usual amount of time to see and react to anything that really does need correcting. Do you know which type of dino you're dealing with?

 

[taricha]

Finally got some better pictures and a few videos. My scope is only 250X though. Still not sure what they are. They began to take over and were growing on everything except my coral.

Here are the pictures. Can't get the videos to work but they basically move back and forth.

Sounds like probably amphidinium, but would love to see videos. Post to YouTube or wherever.