Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[m0jjen]

I did a vacuum of the sand bed yesterday and it looked good for a couple hours and then it started to creep back on the sand and rock. Im just wondering if i should continue dosing to maintain NO3 & PO4 levels and not vacuum for a couple of weeks?? I think the biggest battle right now is just getting stability.

What i do know is in the future i will always continue vacuuming my sand bed during water changes. I want to ensure that i eliminate as much of the "Dino Devils" as possible and hope my systems is strong enough to overcome. I also think i have age of the system not in my favor. My tank is only 5 months old.

One thing i noticed that i found interesting was in my fuge were a bunch of sponges on the glass, bottom and on my skimmer.

Pineapple sponges? Have alot of them aswell As @mcarroll says, if its not a huge amount of dinos vaccuming works aswell

 

[mcarroll]

I did a vacuum of the sand bed yesterday and it looked good for a couple hours

It may take more than one vacuuming.

Also, the best way to tell if you've made a difference might not be visible in the tank.

Note your dosing requirements over the next several days by testing.

If vacuuming made a big enough difference, there "should" be a pretty sigificant reduction in the amount of dissolved nutrients being consumed by the tank....which in turn "should" show up as an unexpected increase of N, P or both on your tests. As usual "your mileage may vary".

• An unexpected increase like that means it worked
• But no unexpected increase just means nothing.
• It does not mean it didn't work to some extent.
• It does mean there's probably no reason to expend a lot of extra effort on vacuuming. Just keep dosing.

 

[biecacka]

So I am thinking I have red turf algae. Time to do some research

Corey

 

[GHsaltie]

So how would you go about trying to battle something as thick as mine?




I have looked at it under the microscope and I can definitely see a tons of dinos, however on top of those is a heavy layer of something else, it's long strands with a very loose corkscrew shape. I have tried weekly, and even bi-weekly water changes gravel vacuuming each time. Although gravel vacs help for about a day the frequent water changes almost seem to make it worse. I have tried heavy feeding, super light feeding, different foods, the metroplex dosing, chemiclean. I am looking into getting a UV sterilizer but I don't know what else to try at this point. As you can see I'm letting the hair algae grow to try and compete with it which seems to have slowed it down some but not a lot. I have a sump that I've tried to grow macro algae in but I can't keep chaeto alive for more than a week. I have virtually no cuc because the snails always die, only have 3 hermit crabs right now. My phosphates are undetectable despite my efforts to bring them up and I can't test N right now as my kit is expired.

 

[Pmj]

@mcarroll So for whatever reason my tank is still just eating up phosphates. I had the dinos spawn again and started a near blackout like I have done before (getting some frags tmrw so wanted to pre-empt a breakout). I didn't even let it get bad, but last week they were over .1 and testing just now it registered a 3 on Hanna ULR (so .009). I have almost no algae to speak of, a few bubble here and there, and chaeto still doesn't grow. You helped me in the other thread and high nutrients definitely helped, am I stuck dosing PO4 forever?

I also am using siporax like some in this thread and the other. Should I pull some of it? I had stopped all carbon dosing for quite a while now but still see the bubbles form on the surface in the sump, maybe the bacteria is still self sustaining at this point?

 

[Scubabeth]

So how would you go about trying to battle something as thick as mine?




I have looked at it under the microscope and I can definitely see a tons of dinos, however on top of those is a heavy layer of something else, it's long strands with a very loose corkscrew shape. I have tried weekly, and even bi-weekly water changes gravel vacuuming each time. Although gravel vacs help for about a day the frequent water changes almost seem to make it worse. I have tried heavy feeding, super light feeding, different foods, the metroplex dosing, chemiclean. I am looking into getting a UV sterilizer but I don't know what else to try at this point. As you can see I'm letting the hair algae grow to try and compete with it which seems to have slowed it down some but not a lot. I have a sump that I've tried to grow macro algae in but I can't keep chaeto alive for more than a week. I have virtually no cuc because the snails always die, only have 3 hermit crabs right now. My phosphates are undetectable despite my efforts to bring them up and I can't test N right now as my kit is expired.

@GHsaltie, it sounds as if you have spirulina (a variety of cyanobacteria) coexisting with your dinos. Both can be red or green; I found some images online of the green varieties of both for you to compare.
If it looks like this under the scope, you've got spirulina:

Chemiclean is supposed to clear up spirulina, though we just waited ours out because we try to avoid chemicals in the tank whenever possible, and it's nearly gone now. (Did take a while, though.)

Cyanobacteria looks like this:

What sort of dinos have you seen under your scope? Do you have any pics?

 

[GHsaltie]

@Scubabeth it could be spirulina, it definitely doesn't look like cyano under the scope. Much of it looks like what you posted but there are also a good majority of it that is just loose corkscrews, think curly French fry lol. As for the dinos I don't know how to ID the specific type, and the third lense is broke on my scope so I can't see them at the closest setting. Here are some older pictures from a couple months ago. Difference now is that there is a thick mat of the other algae over the dinos.

 

[mcarroll]

Gnarly outcrops of algae! With patches of cyano and hair algae this looks like a near-recovery. At least from my view the corals look pretty happy too.

What's the history on how this tank got like this?

Did we already PM about this or do you have a thread you've already started that has more details or photos? (Start one! )

My guess is that as long as you can keep the N and P from crashing (again) the tank will continue to self-correct. All traces of the old dino outbreak need to break down before things will totally get back to normal, and this can take a lot of N and P. With patience, it'll happen though. Frequently blasting detritus out of rocks and the sand is a good idea and may help to speed this along. Use of a diatom filter during blasting is also a great idea, if possible.

Reverse any recent changes like increased feedings until things turn around.

If you're running extra bio-media or any nutrient reduction tools like GFO or carbon-source dosing, stop.

 

[mcarroll]

@Pmj I need to be careful about posting while I'm distracted....I read your post, walked away, then read GHSalty's, then walked away, then I came back and replied to GHSalty with a combined answer to both of you. LOL

Tell me if you see your answer in the post above. It pretty much all applies to both of you anyway.

 

[Scubabeth]

@Scubabeth it could be spirulina, it definitely doesn't look like cyano under the scope. Much of it looks like what you posted but there are also a good majority of it that is just loose corkscrews, think curly French fry lol. As for the dinos I don't know how to ID the specific type, and the third lense is broke on my scope so I can't see them at the closest setting. Here are some older pictures from a couple months ago. Difference now is that there is a thick mat of the other algae over the dinos.

Hmmm...looks like Prorocentrum species to my eye; what do you think, @taricha? With that magnification, I still have a hard time, but don't see the "hook" shape at the end associated with an Amphidinium species.

Like @mcarroll stated, having some hair and cyano type algae can be a good sign that your tank is correcting, but dinos and cyano can coexist so well, that it's not ideal. Cyano can bloom if your P level is higher than your N level. I know you said your P is undetectable, but there is some in the tank being used by all the algae present; just uptaken faster than it registers on your test kit. Will be good to get a fresh N kit so you can test this, too. I am NOT a dosing expert, though, so will let others chime in about suggestions for P and N dosing. We dose nitrate, to keep our detectable, in addition to the heavier feeding you also are trying.

Hang in there....more help will come!

 

[GHsaltie]

Haha @mcarroll your crazy . Thanks for the advice, I have made at least one thread I think on my issue, I figured I'd pop in here since y'all are already on the subject of dinos. The tank is 16 months old and I started having a Dino outbreak in November-December if I remember correctly. Never had issues with other algae, compared to the dinos at least. I was able to keep it somewhat contained with weekly water changes and heavy gravel vacs for about 2 months, then I slacked on my maintenance some and it took off and has given up no ground. I read a tidbit on letting other algae compete with it so that's when I started feeding heavier to encourage the hair algae to grow. I actually just ripped out a ton last Saturday, those pics are from today so it's growing pretty good. Weird how that makes me happy. And the corals are super happy, only one upset is my blasto but I think it's because he's too close to the leathers. Which is frustrating because I like taking pictures of my corals except all the ugly algae is in the way .

 

[mcarroll]

I have made at least one thread I think on my issue

I'm glad you popped in!!

I took a quick look and I couldn't tell which thread you were referring to....can you link it here?

Had you been using GFO or carbon-source dosing or any other "extra" nutrient-reduction techniques since starting the tank about 16 months ago? How had N and P levels been throughout that time? ...especially up to the point that dino's first bloomed?

Do you know where the dino's came from?

Definitely keep up those N's and P's until this is all a distant memory.

Use clean up crew as your main weapon against the algae that will inevitably start growing. Fast growing algae are going to be a lot more palatable to grazers than the stagnantly growing outcrops you have, so be prepared NOT to deal with it manually. Stock up on snails as-needed. (Don't over-do it, of course.)

 

[taricha]

@Scubabeth it could be spirulina, it definitely doesn't look like cyano under the scope. Much of it looks like what you posted but there are also a good majority of it that is just loose corkscrews, think curly French fry lol. As for the dinos I don't know how to ID the specific type, and the third lense is broke on my scope so I can't see them at the closest setting. Here are some older pictures from a couple months ago. Difference now is that there is a thick mat of the other algae over the dinos.

This is Large Cell Amphidinium.

Can we get pics of curly fry growth? It sounds weird, and interesting.

Link to your thread of tank issues for others who might want some backstory- Guys, I need help...... https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?threads/Guys,-I-need-help.......291423/

This Dino doesn't go into the water, so UV will be useless on this type. It gets along with cyano really well, I'd make an effort at siphoning both.

Another poster and myself posted what we did vs this particular kind of Dino. There were a lot of similarities, and would be good to see if some of that might help you. I'll find the posts...

Edit:
Check this post by @bh750 here Dinoflagellates - dinos a possible cure!? Follow along and see!
https://www.reef2reef.com/index.php?posts/3863417/

Read his follow-up in post #4394, and my post #4397, for accounts of other people with your kind.

 

[GHsaltie]

For nutrient control the only thing I use is my skimmer and filter sock, I'm trying to go for a minimalistic approach, once I get over this problem first haha. I checked my notebook and October-December N stayed at 25 and P 0.03-.1 come January everything dropped, P undetectable and N 0-5. January was also when it really started taking over if I remember correctly. I can only assume that I brought it in with some coral or something. I didn't pay much mind to it at first because I knew the "ugly stage" was coming soon, now it's really ugly!
@taricha yep that's the thread, thanks for finding it. I'll try again to get a pic of the curly fries, it'll probably be tomorrow though as I'll be off to work in a little bit. The dinos did go into the water column for the majority of the time I've had them, but I've noticed that hasn't been the case of late. I'll definitely take a look at those posts. Thank you guys for helping me out.

 

[rockstarta78]

The struggle is real here. For the life of me I can't get the parameters to stay consistent and I have figured out the consumption is not consistent either. NO3 consumption is between 2.5 ~ 5ppm that much I have figured out. PO4 is a different story. Here's a PO4 reading sample and I've been dosing 1 capfull PO4 and 10ml of KNO3

* All test reading is from Hanna ULR
7/26 - 0.023 ppm
7/27 - 0 ppm
7/28 - 0.043 ppm
7/29 - 0 ppm
7/30 - 0.034 ppm
8/1 - 0.27 ppm
8/4 - 0.06 ppm
8/5 - 0 ppm
8/7 - 0 ppm (dosed 2 capfull)

As of last night, I started dosing 2 capfull of PO4 and 20ml of KNO3. Do you guys think that's too much? I can build a pattern on PO4 consumption. Please let me know your thoughts. As always, appreciate all input.

 

[mcarroll]

@rockstarta78 As long as you're doing the test right (no reason to doubt, just sayin') then keep up the dosing.

2 capfuls is fine by me too – work your way up to whatever it takes – as long as you're able to keep the champion-level testing routine up so you catch it when there is finally some PO4 accumulating. At some point you will have to back down to "sane levels" of dosing.

 

[drawman]

Well to me it came to the point of desperation, the dino was litterly sufficating my corals. So i had to do something drastic to give me a chance to at the very least improve the situation. If id get some small dino bloom on the sandbed i wouldnt remove the sandbed unless it got alot worse, fast!

I know how you feel. It is crazy how quickly they decimate acroporas and can be super depressing to watch!

 

[rockstarta78]

@rockstarta78 As long as you're doing the test right (no reason to doubt, just sayin') then keep up the dosing.

2 capfuls is fine by me too – work your way up to whatever it takes – as long as you're able to keep the champion-level testing routine up so you catch it when there is finally some PO4 accumulating. At some point you will have to back down to "sane levels" of dosing.

I thought I was seeing some GHA, but not much lately. I am also running carbon, syphoning the sand bed every other day and filter floss (to catch cyanos mostly). As for the testing, since everything is out of whack I think I am taking a quarantine zone level 4 lab approach. . I wipe down the cuvettes with a micrfiber cloth, I am using timer to time it right. Sometimes the powder does spill outside the cuvette, oh well! These things are PITA.

 

[mcarroll]

I checked my notebook and October-December N stayed at 25 and P 0.03-.1 come January everything dropped, P undetectable and N 0-5.

That's how the old thread reads too. P dropping to zero was definitely what instigated the bloom IMO.

From the old thread, you had been dosing VitaChem.

Apparently it's a good carbon source and a good nitrogen source. (Thanks for those posts calling out the amino's and vitamin C @saltyfilmfolks!)

So that (a carbon source) explains the slant towards unpleasant algae.....and the N-source explains how P alone was driven to zero.

P-zero is what most likely triggered toxin production in the dino's.....they switch from being photosynthetic to eating the local bacteria (from autotrophy to bacterivory) for nutrients and appear to transfer C-fixation from photosynthesis into toxins and mucus. (See: Bacterivory in algae: A survival strategy during nutrient limitation)

Since it's in the past, this is all good – the main clues we needed.

It should mean that attaining therapeutic levels of N and P should be just about all it takes to "restore order" in your tank.

PO4: ≥0.10 ppm
NO3: ≥5-10 ppm

Try not to let them drop below those levels....certainly don't let either one drop to zero again.

Judging from those photos in the old thread, I'd also probably spend some time vacuuming your sand and blasting your rocks with a strong power head before water changes. The biomass they leave behind will consume a lot of nutrients as they break down if they are just left in place. OK, but it can hypothetically extend the recovery process. If you are able to get one, run a diatom filter at that time too – it would be ideal.

Forgot to mention that I'd also run activated carbon to remove any dissolved toxins – smaller amounts, but changed frequently for max. potency.

 

[mcarroll]

Sometimes the powder does spill outside the cuvette, oh well! These things are PITA.

Yes, but my understanding is that a tiny about of wastage does not matter. All good.