Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Beardo]

@rockstarta78 I had to dose phosphates pretty heavily initially. I went through a 500ml bottle of the Seachem Flourish Phosphorus in 2 weeks. Lately though consumption has dropped to 10ml a day (4 caps). I also found nitrate consumption can vary quite a bit so need to be consistent with sampling of nitrates as well. Good luck in your battle.

 

[GHsaltie]

@mcarroll thank you so much for your input. I will look into the diatom filter, how would you suggest I go about getting N and P up? I can't really feed heavier because I only have 3 small fish and a larger blenny, so I would be putting more food in than they can eat.

 

[mcarroll]

@GHsaltie This can give you an idea about what's behind nutrient dosing, but obviously substitute P additives and P testing for the N stuff in the article:
A Nitrate Dosing Calculator For Better Tank Health (And Better Coral Color!)

Basically, you get a supplement – I think they're all potassium-based...either in phosphate or nitrate form – and dose up to the desired level. Pretty much just like you would with alk, Ca or Mg.

PO4: ≥ 0.10 ppm
NO3: ≥ 5-10 ppm

BTW, did you ever figure out why your calcium was so high but alkalinity and magnesium were so low back in that thread? Sounded like a potential salinity issue.....which along with nutrient crashes is one of the other main triggers for a dino bloom.

Keep mineral and nutrient levels as stable as you can going forward.

 

[rockstarta78]

@rockstarta78 I had to dose phosphates pretty heavily initially. I went through a 500ml bottle of the Seachem Flourish Phosphorus in 2 weeks. Lately though consumption has dropped to 10ml a day (4 caps). I also found nitrate consumption can vary quite a bit so need to be consistent with sampling of nitrates as well. Good luck in your battle.

WHOA! How big is your tank? I am dosing on a 40g breeder tank. I know every tank is different, but I am still curious, how long did it take before you saw a significant improvement? And thank you for your advice.

 

[mcarroll]

I can't really feed heavier because I only have 3 small fish and a larger blenny, so I would be putting more food in than they can eat.

You can always feed more by feeding more frequently – and that is probably a good idea for the tank. (Consider an Eheim feeder and feedingSTATION for when you're not at the house.)

But that's not a good idea for the dino's. You need to dose only what's missing in order to fix the balance of things vs trying to increase overall nutrient levels.

 

[Cscultho]

Should i stop running my UV since the objective is to start building back up green algae and we know green algae is killed by UV??

 

[Beardo]

WHOA! How big is your tank? I am dosing on a 40g breeder tank. I know every tank is different, but I am still curious, how long did it take before you saw a significant improvement? And thank you for your advice.

Tank is 270g. I'm only a few weeks ahead of you in this effort but had knocked them back previously with elevated pH. I had been swinging back and forth between heavy dinos to cyano to things looking decent since last November. I noticed some pretty big swings in phosphate levels through this time but never put 2 and 2 together as I was too focused on nitrates only.
Things are slowly improving now with some days looking better and some worse. First couple of weeks tank started looking really bad, then slowly started to improve. I noticed the corals that had dino strings previously no longer had them. The few surviving corals are looking better than they have in a long time and growth, which had been pretty stagnant, is starting to take off. It's going to take time for a new balance to be established and competition to get the upper hand. I've been dealing with these since January of 2015 so a few months is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Just be patient and keep a steady course. When I replied to your last post, what I was trying to say is don't be afraid to dose heavy to get your levels to where you want them. You may need to test before and after dosing to help get a handle on consumption rates. I am also starting to think splitting the dose between morning and night might help to stay in the target range.
I'm only sharing what I have experienced so far in hopes it helps. Good luck.

 

[rockstarta78]

Tank is 270g. I'm only a few weeks ahead of you in this effort but had knocked them back previously with elevated pH. I had been swinging back and forth between heavy dinos to cyano to things looking decent since last November. I noticed some pretty big swings in phosphate levels through this time but never put 2 and 2 together as I was too focused on nitrates only.
Things are slowly improving now with some days looking better and some worse. First couple of weeks tank started looking really bad, then slowly started to improve. I noticed the corals that had dino strings previously no longer had them. The few surviving corals are looking better than they have in a long time and growth, which had been pretty stagnant, is starting to take off. It's going to take time for a new balance to be established and competition to get the upper hand. I've been dealing with these since January of 2015 so a few months is nothing in the grand scheme of things.
Just be patient and keep a steady course. When I replied to your last post, what I was trying to say is don't be afraid to dose heavy to get your levels to where you want them. You may need to test before and after dosing to help get a handle on consumption rates. I am also starting to think splitting the dose between morning and night might help to stay in the target range.
I'm only sharing what I have experienced so far in hopes it helps. Good luck.

Thank you for your response. I really appreciate that. I was/am getting very frustrated with my tank. I have had few freshwater tanks in my life. I would say I've been a fish hobiest for about 15+ years off and on. And I've always wanted a salt water tank. This tank has been setup for little over a year, in all my years with freshwater tank I don't think I have ever faced anything this frustrating. Before I setup this tank I studied for months to get an understanding of how this is different from freshwater. From everything I read, and talking to people, I came to the understanding that I had to run a 0 or near zero NO3 & PO4 system. Right after I finished cycling the tank I ran Phosguard, RoaPhos every possible PO4 reducer I could get at the LFS. Not to mention feeding my fishes just enough so I didn't have NO3 build up. Honestly, I spent most time trying to reach ULNS state yet I always had what I thought was diatom. Little did I know that those were Dino. As of last night I increased my dosage. The way I see it, the worst that's going to happen is the tank will get uglier for the time being. It's not looking pretty right now, so the "ugliness" won't matter much. Once again thank you for your response and the encouragement.

 

[taricha]

Should i stop running my UV since the objective is to start building back up green algae and we know green algae is killed by UV??

No. Run UV.
1. objective is to establish healthy nutrients, while killing/removing dino cells, and therefore allowing other organisms (green algae) to colonize the areas they should naturally be.
2. UV hits things in water column. The algae we're taking about allowing to grow are attached to substrate.

From everything I read, and talking to people, I came to the understanding that I had to run a 0 or near zero NO3 & PO4 system. Right after I finished cycling the tank I ran Phosguard, RoaPhos every possible PO4 reducer I could get at the LFS. Not to mention feeding my fishes just enough so I didn't have NO3 build up. Honestly, I spent most time trying to reach ULNS state yet I always had what I thought was diatom. Little did I know that those were Dino.

yep, and anyone who reads forums, and counts what thread titles are about would come to same conclusion you did. But "nutrients are bad" "starvation is good" "zero algae is the goal" are all sentiments that - while popular - don't really represent life in a healthy reef environment at all.

 

[mwilk19]

I've been running UV for more than two weeks now. I added it to try and deal with a bad case of ostreopsis. Any trace of dinos is gone. I have some hair algae but it's not outrageous. Right now, my tank is as healthy as it has been in a year. I tried the ULNS thing and it wasn't good for my corals and may very well have fueled the dino outbreak. Right now my NO3 is 5 and my PO4 is .06.

 

[Cscultho]

I've been running UV for more than two weeks now. I added it to try and deal with a bad case of ostreopsis. Any trace of dinos is gone. I have some hair algae but it's not outrageous. Right now, my tank is as healthy as it has been in a year. I tried the ULNS thing and it wasn't good for my corals and may very well have fueled the dino outbreak. Right now my NO3 is 5 and my PO4 is .06.

Thats great to hear.

Ive been running my UV for a couple months now and still had a huge break out im still battling as we speak. My tank yesterday looked awful but still my N & P are still reading close to ZERO. I think i need to start doubling up on my dosing to increase N&P....

 

[taricha]

Thats great to hear.

Ive been running my UV for a couple months now and still had a huge break out im still battling as we speak. My tank yesterday looked awful but still my N & P are still reading close to ZERO. I think i need to start doubling up on my dosing to increase N&P....

Give us your uv & tank details (or link if you've posted it elsewhere). After that length of time....UV is either not working, undersized, not getting right contact, or you have the kind of dinos that doesn't go into water, or it's not dinos at all.

Tank pics, microscope pics etc for ID.

 

[Cscultho]

Give us your uv & tank details (or link if you've posted it elsewhere). After that length of time....UV is either not working, undersized, not getting right contact, or you have the kind of dinos that doesn't go into water, or it's not dinos at all.

Tank pics, microscope pics etc for ID.

Unfortunately i do not have a microscope...i do need to invest in on.

I have a 24w UV on my 65g tank. The UV is in the DT and is only 2-3 months old. I installed the UV originally to get rid of the green algae when no dino's were even present. It wasnt for a month or so later the dino reared their ugly heads.

I will send a pic of the tank later today. but the algae is long and stringy with air bubbles accumulating later in the day after the lights have been on for 5+ hours.

In addition to dosing N&P i have been feeding heavy my 4 fish. flakes and frozen. Roughly 4x per day alternating.

 

[rockstarta78]

No. Run UV.


yep, and anyone who reads forums, and counts what thread titles are about would come to same conclusion you did. But "nutrients are bad" "starvation is good" "zero algae is the goal" are all sentiments that - while popular - don't really represent life in a healthy reef environment at all.

I am learning to take most forum comments with a grain of salt. I shouldn't have run GFO or any PO4 remover when I initially setup this tank. Should have let it run for at least a year before deciding on PO4 remover or any GFO. If I could re-do it, I'd do so many things differently. :mad:

 

[GHsaltie]

@mcarroll I never did find out why my parameters are wacky. I actually haven't checked them since last month so I did this morning and got Cal 400, Mg 1080, Alk 5.3 ! I can't figure out how that is even possible, and I don't know the effects of low Alk so I'm trying not to panic. I'm getting some more saltwater ready so I'm going to test the parameters of that water and see what I get. I think I've tested it before but if I did I didn't write it down so now I can't remember. There shouldn't be any reason why my fresh saltwater would have weird parameters though.

 

[OnPointCorals]

I'll give a little contribution to this thread as it helped me a lot along the way.

I will tell you what has worked (working) for me.

Here's my dino story summed up.

I have a 75 gallon DT with a 45 gallon frag tank both sharing a 40 gallon sump (containing a 15 gallon Refugium). Tank has been running just over 3 years. My dino outbreak was moderate to severe. I did not identify it using a microscope but I have had many much more knowledgeable people than I identify them as such. The type I had was not toxic as I did not experience any die off of cleaning crew. My tanks are sps dominated and by the end of each day most or all of my frags / mini colonies / colonies were covered with dinos. My battle lasted about 5 months. My tank and Refugium were loaded with fauna and pods, all this was wiped out from the dinos / treatments.

I tried the following with zero to very little success:

1. Dino-X (20 day cycle)

2. H2O2 up to 3 ml per 10 gallon daily for a month.

3. Raising PH with kalk

4. Three day black outs (my sps hated these and I would get tricked by being dino free for 3-4 days, but you all know how that ends)

5. Turkey basting followed by daily syphoning using an airline tube

6. No water changes

7. Leaving everything alone for a few weeks

When I say I tried I really gave each of these plenty of a chance with no success. These daily routines really really wore me down. Dino keeping is a lot of work! During all those trials I lost a few colonies, my maxima clam and many sps frags.

I got to the point where some nights I would just shut off the lights for no reason other than to not have to look at it anymore.

Fast forward to about 2 months ago I started down my path of what seems to be long term success (hopefully). I have been about 1.5 months of not dino free but very little present. Some days I need to really hunt around to find any.

I did the following and don't know what specifically did it. One thing may have helped more than the other but all was done simultaneously.

1. I ran a 35 watt UV in my DT and a 25 watt UV in my Frag tank (with slow flow around 250 gph)
2. I placed an order with Tampa bay saltwater for 30lbs of fresh live rock and 20 lbs of fresh live sand.
3. I removed 30% of my sand bed to be replaced
4. I removed 15% of my live rock
5. Added prodibio every other day
6. Added live phytoplankton every day

I feel the main items that have contributed to my success is the UV and the fresh live sand / rock.

I can keep you guys updated a month or so to share if I continue down my successful path.

Hope this has helped.

 

[rockstarta78]

I'll give a little contribution to this thread as it helped me a lot along the way.

I will tell you what has worked (working) for me.

Here's my dino story summed up.

I have a 75 gallon DT with a 45 gallon frag tank both sharing a 40 gallon sump (containing a 15 gallon Refugium). Tank has been running just over 3 years. My dino outbreak was moderate to severe. I did not identify it using a microscope but I have had many much more knowledgeable people than I identify them as such. The type I had was not toxic as I did not experience any die off of cleaning crew. My tanks are sps dominated and by the end of each day most or all of my frags / mini colonies / colonies were covered with dinos. My battle lasted about 5 months. My tank and Refugium were loaded with fauna and pods, all this was wiped out from the dinos / treatments.

I tried the following with zero to very little success:

1. Dino-X (20 day cycle)

2. H2O2 up to 3 ml per 10 gallon daily for a month.

3. Raising PH with kalk

4. Three day black outs (my sps hated these and I would get tricked by being dino free for 3-4 days, but you all know how that ends)

5. Turkey basting followed by daily syphoning using an airline tube

6. No water changes

7. Leaving everything alone for a few weeks

When I say I tried I really gave each of these plenty of a chance with no success. These daily routines really really wore me down. Dino keeping is a lot of work! During all those trials I lost a few colonies, my maxima clam and many sps frags.

I got to the point where some nights I would just shut off the lights for no reason other than to not have to look at it anymore.

Fast forward to about 2 months ago I started down my path of what seems to be long term success (hopefully). I have been about 1.5 months of not dino free but very little present. Some days I need to really hunt around to find any.

I did the following and don't know what specifically did it. One thing may have helped more than the other but all was done simultaneously.

1. I ran a 35 watt UV in my DT and a 25 watt UV in my Frag tank (with slow flow around 250 gph)
2. I placed an order with Tampa bay saltwater for 30lbs of fresh live rock and 20 lbs of fresh live sand.
3. I removed 30% of my sand bed to be replaced
4. I removed 15% of my live rock
5. Added prodibio every other day
6. Added live phytoplankton every day

I feel the main items that have contributed to my success is the UV and the fresh live sand / rock.

I can keep you guys updated a month or so to share if I continue down my successful path.

Hope this has helped.

For the sake of everything good, I hope your dino never comes back. I, personally would like to see your tank update if you ever decide to stop running the UV filter. I am seeing more and more people running UV Sterilizer to battle dino. I don't even know if that's an option for me since I have my return hard plumbed. So how's your NO3 and PO4? When you were fighting dino, did you test your NO3 and PO4? But I do believe having a UV really helps with fighting dino. I just need to figure out how I can run one without disassembling my hard plumbed return.

 

[OnPointCorals]

For the sake of everything good, I hope your dino never comes back. I, personally would like to see your tank update if you ever decide to stop running the UV filter. I am seeing more and more people running UV Sterilizer to battle dino. I don't even know if that's an option for me since I have my return hard plumbed. So how's your NO3 and PO4? When you were fighting dino, did you test your NO3 and PO4? But I do believe having a UV really helps with fighting dino. I just need to figure out how I can run one without disassembling my hard plumbed return.

I ran them both hung on the tanks (1 on DT, 1 on frag tank, its all one connected system). I recommend doing this. I don't think it will be as effective if it's in the sump Initially. The dinos have to regularly flow throw the UV. With that said last week I took them both off and installed just one of them, the Aqua UV 25 watt, in my sump and so far so good.

 

[mwilk19]

I don't even know if that's an option for me since I have my return hard plumbed.

My return is also hard plumbed. The UV unit I bought is for a pond (55w) and is big. I was able to put it under my tank and used a 300 GPH pump in the skimmer chamber of my sump and the return put in the chamber with my main pump. Even though it was plumbed in my sump, the dinos were under control in a week. I'm not convinced that UV completely eradicates dinos but I don't have the guts to turn it off to find out.

 

[Cscultho]

My return is also hard plumbed. The UV unit I bought is for a pond (55w) and is big. I was able to put it under my tank and used a 300 GPH pump in the skimmer chamber of my sump and the return put in the chamber with my main pump. Even though it was plumbed in my sump, the dinos were under control in a week. I'm not convinced that UV completely eradicates dinos but I don't have the guts to turn it off to find out.

It interesting that people are seeing success with UV's when ive been running one for the past couple of months and within the last 2 weeks I had an awful Dino explosion. there must me more to the solution than just UV. I need to get my P&N elevated i guess.

Also when i speak of my issues with the LFS store they are clueless. When i speak of raising my N&P to battle this demon dino they scratch their heads...They look at me like im crazy and tell me I've never heard of anybody trying to raise the N&P nor do they even know how to raise them. I told them about stump remover and Seachmen Flourish Phospate and they went cross-eyed...