Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[mcarroll]

So I tested po4 and no3 today, my po4 is at 0.27ppm and no3 is at 10ppm. So I've decided not to dose today. I still see dino. It hasn't improved. Should I still dose? I think I should skip today. What do you think @mcarroll

You finally saturated whatever was chewing up all that PO4! Sweet!

≥0.10 ppm PO4 is your target, so your instinct to hold off was right....nothing much to gain (as far as we know) by dosing more if you're already beyond that level. Just don't stop watching and let it dip again.

≥0.10 needs to be "the new normal".

Good number for NO3 as well....keep that anywhere between 5-10 ppm in general, but stable is good if you can manage it.

 

[taricha]

I don't see Dino's in my tank anymore, but the sample showed they are still there in some sort of a dormant form. The shape and movement are different from what I saw before.

Pics / vids?

 

[taricha]

I see some are having good luck with running a UV sterilizer. I have been running slow flow UV, a AquaUV 57 watt classic, for over 2 years (just changed the bulb for a second time) and still have dinos. It is nice to see it working for others but for me I never had success. I do believe it helped keep the population down at times but never to the levels others here have been reporting.

I'm not sure your watts per gallon is enough. 57 watt UV sounds like a lot, but your tank is 270 gallons, right? I don't know how much is enough, but you might be establishing that 5gal per watt isn't quite enough power. Anyway, lets see if we can overcome that limitation.

...so did a short lights out (Saturday and part of the day Sunday) just to knock dinos back, not that I expected much. I have to say for such a short lights out period the tank is looking pretty good, even today. Green algae on the rocks is going strong with just minimal dinos covering it.

Yep that darkness is not enough to kill dinos, but it may have been enough to make them go into water column more.
I'd recommend try cutting the photoperiod by 1/3 to 1/2. Say from 10 hrs to 5 or 6 of daylight. See if the longer dark period pushes more dinos into the water column, and therefore more contact with UV.
Also blast dinos off surfaces, especially at lights-out.

[QUOTE="Beardo, post: 3930512, member: 55449"I have also been feeding phyto on a daily basis.[/QUOTE]
I'd cut out the phyto for a bit. Until visible signs of dinos are gone, then maybe resume to feed other things.

(I really hope these are actually dinos, without microscope, who knows?)

 

[Beardo]

Thanks Taricha.
I understand the lights out won't kill the dinos. I did multiple lights outs over the last couple of years, up to 8 days, while trying to get them under control and in the water column for the UV to work. This short lights out was just due to pride as I didn't want my tank to look like someplace the swamp thing resided while I had company over. It just has responded better than I expected, maybe a timing thing with the "consistent nutrients" method starting to work.

Interesting thoughts on the phyto. Other threads (different forum) suggested phyto to feed pods and other microorganisms. Can you share more of your thought process on this?

I have no doubt I have been battling dinos. 2 1/2 years of studying pictures, symptoms etc. has me convinced. (been wrong before though and will be again, no doubt). I need to dig through some old pictures of when they were bad so I can share.
Now I do wish I had a microscope and have been looking for reasonable priced units. Always wanted a more reliable identification. Also, as I am seeing fewer and fewer signs, I would like to get a better understanding of where I actually stand with these and what else is going on in the tank.

Thanks again for all your input, it is always appreciated.

 

[pacificdiver]

This is going to sound crazy, but I get a single-ply section of paper towel (from a roll, not a folded paper towel) and place it in a baffle with zero bypass. It will turn dark brown within a few hours, at which time I remove and replace. Water column clears up in a matter of a day or two. It won't affect anything that's surface-bound, but it will keep the tank looking clear while the problem is dealt with.

Total cost? About 50 cents worth of paper.

 

[Beardo]

I'm not sure your watts per gallon is enough. 57 watt UV sounds like a lot, but your tank is 270 gallons, right? I don't know how much is enough, but you might be establishing that 5gal per watt isn't quite enough power. Anyway, lets see if we can overcome that limitation.

Missed this in my last response...I agree the wattage may not be enough on a tank this size. I originally purchased this unit 2 years ago when I was about 6 months into my dino battle in my 240g tank. The size was recommended by some on RC, I almost went bigger and wish I would. Experience is a great teacher though.

 

[taricha]

Interesting thoughts on the phyto. Other threads (different forum) suggested phyto to feed pods and other microorganisms. Can you share more of your thought process on this?

Yeah, not concrete about how best to use phyto, but here's my thinking.
We've seen that dinos respond well to food inputs of organics, and complex molecules, which phyto could be a good source of (even if our dinos can't ingest phyto directly). Plus phyto is something that can be easily trapped in dino mucus and broken down at their convenience. And even if it feeds and grows pods, those pods can get overrun by dinos too.
I did one test - dosed live phyto to a mixed tank of GHA and Dinos. The pods increased, but so did the dinos. Under the microscope I saw copepods that were getting covered and trapped in dino mucus and dying, over time the increase in pods was short-lived and the dinos ultimately won.

So I think phyto, if used, ought to be something that gets added to boost biodiversity after there are no visible traces of dinos.

 

[Beardo]

Yeah, not concrete about how best to use phyto, but here's my thinking.
We've seen that dinos respond well to food inputs of organics, and complex molecules, which phyto could be a good source of (even if our dinos can't ingest phyto directly). Plus phyto is something that can be easily trapped in dino mucus and broken down at their convenience. And even if it feeds and grows pods, those pods can get overrun by dinos too.
I did one test - dosed live phyto to a mixed tank of GHA and Dinos. The pods increased, but so did the dinos. Under the microscope I saw copepods that were getting covered and trapped in dino mucus and dying, over time the increase in pods was short-lived and the dinos ultimately won.

So I think phyto, if used, ought to be something that gets added to boost biodiversity after there are no visible traces of dinos.

Perfect, thank you.

 

[mcarroll]

Now I do wish I had a microscope and have been looking for reasonable priced units.

In my Selecting a microscope thread, I ended up picking a $12 toy microscope to start with and help me decide what to ultimately spend some money on. It's not "nice" but it works really well! I also got a cellphone mount for taking pics and vids....it's nicer than the scope.

Also, as I am seeing fewer and fewer signs, I would like to get a better understanding of where I actually stand with these and what else is going on in the tank.

Good to hear!! How have your N and P levels been lately?

Things have changed a little with our understanding lately, so make sure you're targeting these levels....especially for P:

PO4: ≥0.10 ppm
NO3: ≥5-10 ppm

 

[Beardo]

In my Selecting a microscope thread, I ended up picking a $12 toy microscope to start with and help me decide what to ultimately spend some money on. It's not "nice" but it works really well! I also got a cellphone mount for taking pics and vids....it's nicer than the scope.
Thanks, will check out that thread.


Good to hear!! How have your N and P levels been lately?

Things have changed a little with our understanding lately, so make sure you're targeting these levels....especially for P:

PO4: ≥0.10 ppm
NO3: ≥5-10 ppm

I am a little shy of these numbers. Phosphate 0.08 - 0.12, easy enough to bump slightly. Nitrate dropped off pretty quickly to about 1 ppm after being steady at 5 ppm for a long time. I am dosing it back up and currently at 3-4 ppm. Working on bringing it up to above 5 ppm.

 

[mcarroll]

I am a little shy of these numbers. Phosphate 0.08 - 0.12, easy enough to bump slightly. Nitrate dropped off pretty quickly to about 1 ppm after being steady at 5 ppm for a long time. I am dosing it back up and currently at 3-4 ppm. Working on bringing it up to above 5 ppm.

That's not a bad range – definitely gotta keep an eye on both when you start dosing.

 

[m0jjen]

Hokay! Gonna see if anyone has any ideas at all at this point.

Been combating dinos since mars roughly. I started by removing the sand and dosing KH2PO4 and KNO3 to raise my nutrients. My Po4 was at 0.003 according to triton when i got dinos. Today my nutrients are 2.5 ppm No3 and 0.04ish Po4.

The sand has been out for 2 months and i've started getting patches with hairalgae and get a steady green filmalge pretty much every 3 days if I dont clean the glas. So pretty confident this sunday i added sand back to the tank and yesterday the dinos started showing ever so little and today alot more but still not that bad. Im gonna go ahead and assume they will strike with full force within a week.

I currently dont dose anything nor overfeed. Only thing added to the tank on a daily basis is AF iodium and my calcium reaktor running to keep my corals happy. I have started a small fuge in my reefer 425XL ato and have about 3 litres of well established siporax.

So my question really is: If i removed the sand and didnt notice any dinos for 2 months. What does it really take to kill them? They re-established in under 3 days! I know something is out of wack balance wise or they wouldnt re-appear but i cant seem to put my finger on it. Triton test is flawless pretty much.

 

[mcarroll]

@m0jjen They're purposefully playing games with your P and N.

If you're familiar with gardening, it's like they're mixing woodchips into your garden soil. Bacteria go nuts on the carbon source and suck down all the available nutrients – N in particular in a garden, probably P in a tank. A side effect of that is nothing else can grow there since there are no available nutrients until the bacterial bloom "cools off".

If you can dose the tank up to ≥0.10 ppm PO4 and ≥5-10 ppm NO3 you should be able to surpass the effect.

Your current levels are better than zero, BTW, but there are very likely to still be lots of locally-zero zones in the tank where blooms happen and the related detritus accumulates.

Keep blasting the rocks as often as you can. I would also vacuum the gravel some.

Do you have a UV or diatom filter that you can use?

 

[m0jjen]

@m0jjen They're purposefully playing games with your P and N.

If you're familiar with gardening, it's like they're mixing woodchips into your garden soil. Bacteria go nuts on the carbon source and suck down all the available nutrients – N in particular in a garden, probably P in a tank. A side effect of that is nothing else can grow there since there are no available nutrients until the bacterial bloom "cools off".

If you can dose the tank up to ≥0.10 ppm PO4 and ≥5-10 ppm NO3 you should be able to surpass the effect.

Your current levels are better than zero, BTW, but there are very likely to still be lots of locally-zero zones in the tank where blooms happen and the related detritus accumulates.

Keep blasting the rocks as often as you can. I would also vacuum the gravel some.

Do you have a UV or diatom filter that you can use?

I currently only have some dino on the upper layer of the sand. Im gonna monitor it while keeping my nutrients up. Im guessing the addition of new clean sand might soak up some nutrients in the start.

No uv and nor diatomfilter. Diatomfilters are hard to get by in sweden afaik!

 

[mcarroll]

Diatom Filters
If you can get Marineland brand equipment, they have a very reasonably priced model (called their "Polishing Filter") that fits inside the tank to run.

UV Filters
If UV is more available, that definitely works too.

Nutrients
"Technically" it's not the sand itself absorbing nutrients, it's the bacteria growing to cover all that new surface area.

The dino's/woodchips concept I mentioned is separate from that and is also happening....this concept is also the main reason for the newly elevated PO4 and NO3 recommendation.

 

[mwilk19]

UV Filters
If UV is more available, that definitely works too.

I'm 9 days into the UV sterilizer and there is no sign of dinos anywhere. My NO3 is ~5 and PO4 measured at .14 today. Just to tempt fate, I dosed some amino acids today to see what the reaction will be.

 

[landlubber]

Diatom Filters
If you can get Marineland brand equipment, they have a very reasonably priced model (called their "Polishing Filter") that fits inside the tank to run.

UV Filters
If UV is more available, that definitely works too.

Nutrients
"Technically" it's not the sand itself absorbing nutrients, it's the bacteria growing to cover all that new surface area.

The dino's/woodchips concept I mentioned is separate from that and is also happening....this concept is also the main reason for the newly elevated PO4 and NO3 recommendation.

ok wait... i've been following this and the other threads along the way here and from my understanding using uv is only effective on the non-bethnic forms of dinoflagellets that rise into the water column when the photoperiod ends. correct?

 

[drawman]

Slowly getting my phosphates up but the tank is still consuming a lot. At about .06ppm from my Hanna Checker. No coral is really happy but I'm keeping up the fight.

 

[taricha]

ok wait... i've been following this and the other threads along the way here and from my understanding using uv is only effective on the non-bethnic forms of dinoflagellets that rise into the water column when the photoperiod ends. correct?

From all I've seen reported anywhere - there's only one kind that we've seen hard evidence it doesn't go into the water column at all: Large Cell Amphidinium.
All the others that we've seen go into the water to some degree, and this can be helped by blasting them off surfaces, and likely also by shortening the daylight period by several hours.
edit: we call them all benthic - because of where they attach, but they leave the substrate (except the one mentioned earlier)

 

[landlubber]

From all I've seen reported anywhere - there's only one kind that we've seen hard evidence it doesn't go into the water column at all: Large Cell Amphidinium.
All the others that we've seen go into the water to some degree, and this can be helped by blasting them off surfaces, and likely also by shortening the daylight period by several hours.
edit: we call them all benthic - because of where they attach, but they leave the substrate (except the one mentioned earlier)

thank you. i appreciate the clarification.