Are water changes over rated?

[PharmrJohn]

With my next iteration, I'll end up doing routine water changes over the first year or so. Then back off somewhat. Perhaps to once a month. Maybe ever 3 weeks. We'll see. I've run tanks doing water changes and not doing water changes. Both methods yielded a successful tank for me. So this next time around I'll just meet myself in the middle and go with the flow. In my eyes, it's just that I like the idea of a slow turnover of water in my ecosystem.

 

[goosemans]

You seem a bit salty to me and others here. What’s the issue?

It should not be pinned because the statements made are in an “absolute” manner and they are not absolute and universal facts. It’s situational based on one persons experience and tank history and doesn’t apply to everyone, but the way it’s worded can be taken out of context without the background behind that post and the owners tank history/setup.

As written, it states if you don’t do semi regular wc, You need then goes onto list 8 things, and actually, you don’t need any of those things. Those are things one person needed but we don’t pin threads based on the history of one persons tank when many others are using the same methods and don’t do those things.

I’m not salty. Again, cool tank you got, congrats on it not changing the water, it looks great. You’re taking my comment “this should be pinned” like a personal attack to you.

 

[Garf]

No. Not true for everyone


By not having semi occasional water changes, you need:

Use ICP
- never had one

Use ozone
- never used it

Need UV
- never used it

Need hydrogen peroxide
- I use it as a dip occasionally

Can’t dose alkalinity that contains sodium
- never crossed my mind. I use all for reef and occasionally baking soda. Prior systems used BRS 2 part

Can’t use calcium that adds chloride
- never crossed my mind. I’ve used a variety of products. Currently use Fusion. Prior was Seachem reef complete. In the past I have used BRS 2 part

Afraid of adding anything to your tank because you’re afraid of ruining the balance.
- I add coral as every 2 weeks. I added 6 fish this year. Not afraid of ruining any balance

Need to dose nitrates and feed heavy and then carbon dose to add alkalinity instead of directly adding the alk.
- not sure where any of this is coming from. I don’t dose nitrates. I do feed equal of 3 cubes a day on a 75 but I have anthias and a tang that eat quick and I need my other 4 fish to get food. Also have a lot of coral and I target feed all of them

I am a LPS collector and I would say I have expensive corals. I’m not afraid to put any coral in this tank. I have a number of acans $250-350 a polyp. I have multiple acanthophyllia and Cynarina. Numerous torches including a nearly 7 head banana grail, that I grew out from a single head frag. I’m adding a god torch next week. I have several lobos that are over $1000. I have a plate that’s $1000. I am not attempting to brag or show off anything but my confidence in this tanks stability. I wouldn’t put these things in if I was worried about the tank. I have not kept sps in this tank from the start (was going to be lps only for this build) but added some a few months ago to ensure everything was good, they grew and are doing well, and 2 weeks ago I added some highs end acro frags and they are all doing well and have excellent color and pe.

I will continue, as I have, without doing water changes not out of laziness, but because I don’t have to. I do keep 2 other reefs with other filtration methods and wc are a part of maintenance for 1 of them.

This tank (and 1 other) was setup to not need them, and it has not and continues to not need them. I see no purpose for them if my basics are covered either by my filtration or by me manually replenishing ca/alk/trace

I also do not use a skimmer or any carbon dosing, nor do I have any form of mechanical filtration (no socks, floss, filter roller etc)

The only filtration on this tank is algae scrubber, display live rock that been in my systems for 10-15 years, and the sump is run as a cryptic zone with live rock (10+ years old) + live sponge. I do have 2 bags of chemipure on media tray between baffles, I switch 1 out every 2-3 months.

I am currently maintaining the following parameters:

Naturally -
Nitrate 6.5
Phosphate .4 - .5

Manually controlled
Ca - 400-420
Alk - 8-8.5
Salinity 1.026
Temp 77

I keep 7 fish
Tomini tang
Male lyrerail anthia
Female lyretail anthia
Lemon chromis
<former> coris wrasse
Purple fire fish
Cardinal fish

Any questions please feel free to ask, I do not question this systems stability at all and I would not hesitate to put any coral in, regardless of sensitivity or difficulty. I also do not believe absolutely anyone can be wc free, I think there are several items that contribute to my success that not everyone has.

Edit: also have 20+ goniopora ranging from frags to small colonies.

This vid, mirrors my experience;

 

[VintageReefer]

I’m not salty. Again, cool tank you got, congrats on it not changing the water, it looks great. You’re taking my comment “this should be pinned” like a personal attack to you.

I don’t mind admitting when I’m wrong. I took the congrats you gave personally and read it with a whoop de do tone instead of as a compliment. My apologies. Text over Internet has no emotion and things can be misread. I apologize for saying you sound salty.

However the pinned thing I don’t take personally, I view it universally

It’s an if then statement that’s false.

If you do this, then you will need to do a, b, c, d, etc.

there’s no room for deviation in the way it’s written. There’s no exception or hint that this may or may not be needed.

It’s very blunt. If you do this, then you will need to: <8 things listed that are not required>

Some of those things even apply to wc tanks. Many people doing wc are worried of “ruining the balance” by adding new livestock. Many wc people do icp. Many wc people perform carbon dosing or nitrate dosing. It’s just a list of stuff that may or may not apply to any random person regardless of wc or no wc but is presented as no wc specific problems / solutions.

 

[VintageReefer]

This vid, mirrors my experience;

I will watch later when I have sometime. I started it. Seems interesting. Thank you

 

[Garf]

I’m not watching a hour and fourteen minute video Garf

But just think about all the time you've saved, not doing water changes, lol.

 

[VintageReefer]

But just think about all the time you've saved, not doing water changes, lol.

lol
I edited my comment. It interests me.

The time I saved not doing a wc on a Saturday morning I spent making breakfast for my family

Now it’s dinner time

 

[Koty]

Water changes are nearly impossible based on where I live, my setup, the tank location in the house, and tap water quality. So, it is not my "religion." I would have chosen if I could have a continuous 1% WC/day. Having said that, As I am dosing the Balling 3 part, I am adding 0.07% new sea salt daily. And occasionally, I have to dump some to keep salinity from creeping up.
Prerequisites to "No water change reef tank" based on my experience only:
Use as many export methods:
Macro algae refuge
heavy carbon dose
strong skimmer on 24/7
UV- My strategy is to use a slow current so that a small portion is fully sterilized bacteria-wise.
As mentioned, Dose three-part Balling that keeps the original Sea salt concentrations
I dose Tropic marine A and K elements a bit less than recommended. Here, I know that none of the elements is accumulated long-term (Based on communication with Dr Balling here on R2R)
I use Hanna for KH, PO4, NO3, Ca, Mg. Salifert for K
Tropic Marine for pH and TM hydrometer for accurate salinity. I try to keep 1.0264 as my target
Mg gets a special treatment: only after salinity and duplicates or triplicates using Hanna and RedSea
I did not do ICP
I have about 20 fish and over 40 species of corals, mostly LPS but also SPS, soft corals zoanthids, and one gorgonian.
Xenia I cannot keep and I was not successful with Euphilias although I j have recently added two. My over two-year-old giant Cynarina died recently when I had my UV off for some reason.
I have a large, hardworking sand-sifting Goby that moves the sand a lot and three wrasses that turn the sand when they go to sleep and occasionally when they sense something they can eat.
Most of my corals are growing. I only dose amino acids regularly four times a day (TM Amino organics 12ml/day)
My major problem is brown hair algae, which is also growing fast.
If you decide to go with no WC, that will be the basis for some recipes. As I said, the primary advantage is the stability of this system, which still has to be monitored to prevent all kinds of parameter drifting.

 

[GARRIGA]

I do not believe that the DSR method by Glenn Fong uses ICP. At least from what I recall. They had a list of what elements to test and what test kits to use. Maybe that has since changed.

Method of testing not as important as why conduct the testing in order to maintain proper levels. Regardless what they promote, ICP makes it easier as one can also identify certain metals detrimental to fish and/or corals.

 

[Doompastew]

What is “spot on”? Who determined this spot on? How was it determined to be spot on and which test(s) is even accurate or reliable enough to make changes based upon?

If a 10% water change is changing your elements enough to disturb the balance, you need to pick a better salt.

Spot on would be what I have set my perimeters to be according to my experience and research. Spot on would be determined by the tank owner. Each reef has a different mix of whatever and only the owner would know how to accommodate the inhabitants. You made a statement alluding to the presumption that all testing is not reliable, so why even test at all? I use Hanna and create a baseline. I then adjust using the baseline.
I state my experiences and offer advice from these experiences, after all, this is what this forum is about. I have been in this hobby since the early nineties. The last 10 years, I haven't done routine water changes, and my tank couldn't be any happier. I have a new build that is 5 months old and have not done a water change yet. I can honestly say that this tank cycled better than any that I have ever done.
I know how to feed my tank without creating an overabundance of nutrients. I perform routine maintenance and have various tools in place for nutrient export. I dose whatever elements are needed.
So, my question would be, why would I do a water change?

 

[stewy14]

I really only do non fresh top offs, I use normal water change water, and water changes when I feel like it
And my tank thrives(keep acros in a 11gal…)

 

[etcee]

Water changes are great

 

[Superlightman]

I don’t do water changes
Phosphates currently .4-.5
Nitrates around 6-6.5

Everything is growing and looking fine, no algae issues in the tank either

nice tank but not difficult sps or corals that lose colors with high phosphates

 

[VintageReefer]

nice tank but not difficult sps or corals that lose colors with high phosphates

What’s your point ?

Here’s Dec 2022 to June 2024

Phosphate increase was intentional and recent. Some corals gain color with higher phosphate. I ran low phosphate for a while. Beauty of an algae scrubber…just adjust the led duration and you can control your numbers

I have no issues keeping phosphate low without water changes if I wanted

I’m currently at .38…just fine tuning the scrubber timer. Aiming to stay between .1 and .2

 

[madreefer11]

I've had a 30 gallon reef tank setup with all soft corals and 5 fish for almost 2 years. I think the best advice I got over this time was to stop doing routine water changes. The first year of my tanks life I was on a weekly water change schedule and was constantly battling fluctuations with readings and corals being happy and then unhappy. Then I stopped doing water changes, and my tank has flourished over the past year! Haven't done one in months and i just took readings. Nitrates are at 0 and the corals and fish couldn't be happier! So are water changes over rated? What do you think?

Nah. water changes are the key to success...unless you have a very good filtration system.

 

[Timfish]

But what science do you have to support that in home kept aquariums only water changes worked? Similar to the never ending thread on Bolus the consistent argument being test ran with comparable systems where the only variable being Bolus strategy added or absent. Who's done that with water changes vs new reefing mentality of dosing what's missing?

Plenty of tanks run on Trident, Moonshiners or Dutch Reef maintained without water changes with trace and other elements dosed based on testing. Are we now to assume that these tanks all doomed because studies on the reef indicate that's expectation and many of these have ozone and or UV and might also been dosed with peroxide which might be new to me but isn't new to fish keeping.

Dream tank will be north of 400 gallons with no practical means of automating water changes and I'm not hauling that many buckets or placing large enough Brutes around it to allow for adequate water changes. Wife will make sure I don't should I suddenly get the urge I'm sure of it.

There's been no scientific proof presented that any detrimental elements such as DOC or coral warfare remnants are diluted fast enough in home aquariums based on exchanging water. Fact not all perform exact same water change percentages would support that not being adequate. Don't care about how one can calculate how much removed weekly equates to tank turnover without knowing how rapidly said concerns build up. That's like assuming water changes can support calcium and alkalinity alone. Perhaps a 5 gallon Pico where 50% easy enough but not what I'm planning built.

As for hydroxyls, this isn't new. Anyone running ozone or UV that has dosed peroxide has created hydroxyls. Can't just assume that water changes solved it. That's just guessing at best. Could be they dosed low enough it didn't matter but none the less I'm sure some have because that's becoming prevalent and not just in trying to solve undesirable GHA but solving display tank ich.

My question is about using sponges to solves DOC. Instead of just proclaiming something won't work perhaps best seek solutions that might. Day we stop trying is the day this hobby and others stop progressing because we chose to just accept defeat or stick to old habits because that's all we believe or trust.

Let's simplify this vs taking sides.

Can sponges remove DOC concerns both naturally occurring as well as those created by hydroxyls? Based on what I've read and understood it seems they can therefore perhaps with the advent of cryptic zone we find a strategy that ensure these no longer remain the hurdle to throwing those dreaded buckets away. Can't see anything other than DOC and undetectable coral warfare remnants being a concern.

Let's break this up to look at you're different argumentation.

But what science do you have to support that in home kept aquariums only water changes worked?

Obvious question is if you're refusing to look at the research I've posted how can you possibly determine one way or another?

All the science over the last couple centries that shows water changes reduce unwanted stuff And specifically for reef systems my experinces having multiple systems, fish and corals and organisms in their second, third and even fourth decade. Having corals spawn repeadedly in my systems would be another example. Having multiple species of clams reproduce another.

. . . new reefing mentality of dosing what's missing? . . .

As I've heard "dose what's missing" in one form or another for as long as I've kept reefs, it's certainly not what I would consider a "new mentality"

Plenty of tanks run on Trident, Moonshiners or Dutch Reef maintained without water changes with trace and other elements dosed based on testing. Are we now to assume that these tanks all doomed because studies on the reef indicate that's expectation and many of these have ozone and or UV and might also been dosed with peroxide which might be new to me but isn't new to fish keeping.

None of these approaches deal with the microbial processes and the conflicting roles of DOC, algae, corals and sponges in reef aquaria. Are they doomed? Sadly, based on my own experiences (you've mistakenly assumed I haven't experimented no water changes) and what I've seen over the last 4 decades, I have to say yes. How quickly will vary according to what microbial groups are promoted and the inherent resiliancy of a system. Other factors include if stuff is being done to promote brighter colors and/or faster growth, both mistakenly assumed to be indicators of health but can actually be indicators of a coral with compromised immune systems.

I've been hearng about reef systems being kept without water changes for four decades now and how this methodology or that dosing regime elimiates the need for water changes. There was one company bragged about going without water changes on the website and in their advertising in the hobbyest magzines and on thier website, until they stopped in 1999. They certainly weren't able to keep systems going as long as I have.

My mentor back in the 90s was a proponet of the Dutch Aquarium Systems (DAS) that used labile DOC in an denitrating filter. Big argument DAS used to promote their systems was it only needed a partial water change once a year. Working on those systems they could go awhile if it was carefully setup and juduciously populated with fish and corals. But they would eventially fail. Biggest problem was the systems could developed horrendous algae issues that I learned were best dealt with by manual removal and large water changes.

On a much broader scale, across the board science is showing when microbiomes are disrupted whether it's at the organisims level or at the ecosystem level, bad things follow. To intentionally disregard current research showing over time the types of DOC produced by algae will cause problems for corals and also disregard the research showing sponges can work with algae to creat phase shifts to algae dominated systems doesn't strike me as wise.

There's been no scientific proof presented that any detrimental elements such as DOC or coral warfare remnants are diluted fast enough in home aquariums based on exchanging water. Fact not all perform exact same water change percentages would support that not being adequate. Don't care about how one can calculate how much removed weekly equates to tank turnover without knowing how rapidly said concerns build up. That's like assuming water changes can support calcium and alkalinity alone. Perhaps a 5 gallon Pico where 50% easy enough but not what I'm planning built.

Again, how can you possibly know one way or the other if you're refusing to look at the research!?

And to correct your mistaken assumption, I've tried systems with no water changes to as much as 80% monthly, 20% - 30% works well for maitaining systems for decades with minimal time and problems. As for maintaining alkalinity and calcium, you're apparently either unaware of or ignoring the biological processes that that dissolve carbonate substrates and provide calcium, alkalinity as well as other trace elements. I have calcium and alkalinity maintained in systems with just water changes.

It's about maintaining healthymicrobiomes. It's not about diluting nutrients and the DOC that is produced daily in a system. We also need to consider sponges are converting a significant portion of the DOC released by algae and corals into nitrogen rich detritus that goes back into the food webs in pretty short order (hours). From what I've read, it would take a pretty well equiped lab and staff to track what's happeing with DOC in an average home aquarium daily, weekly and monthly. Fortunately, corals and sponges are able to do so. But what sponges are doing is differentially processing the beneficial DOC from corals and the detrimental DOC from algae and promoting different types of microbial processes. Since algae releases significantly more DOC than corals what has scientists concerned is feedback loops between sponges and algae that causes a phase shift brom a coral dominate system to a algae dominate system. By reducing algae with herbivores and manual removal with water changes the harmful microbial processes caused by either algae DOC directly or inderectly by the algae DOC derived products sponges release back into the water and reducing total microbial counts with water changes ASSISTS corals in promoting and maintaining healthy microbiomes through the DOC they release directly and indrectly through the coral DOC derived products sponges relase back into the water.

As for hydroxyls, this isn't new. Anyone running ozone or UV that has dosed peroxide has created hydroxyls. Can't just assume that water changes solved it. That's just guessing at best. Could be they dosed low enough it didn't matter but none the less I'm sure some have because that's becoming prevalent and not just in trying to solve undesirable GHA but solving display tank ich.

As I pointed out in an earlier post, using hydroxyl radicals has been shown not to be as effective as you've promoted them. FYI free radicals superoxide O2•–, H2O2 and OH are a major problem for corals as they are products of phtosynthesis and they have a lot of biology just for neutralizing them (Specifically, inside a cell OH interfeares with the mitochondria.) Ozone has it's own set of issues and breaking refractory DOC into types that promote microbial growth has the same issues as adding labile DOC or using hydrozyl ions to reak refractory DOC into forms that feed microbes

H2O2 definitley has it's uses in reef aquaria. I'll use small cups on the end of a syrenge or large bore needles to kill algae while minimizing exposure of nearby corals. But my searches haven't found any research and you haven't presented research by scientists that identifies safe levels for corals or shows using H2O2 will minimize the role of excess labile DOC in causing either anoxic conditions in the coral microbiome or pathogenic shifts in the coral microbiome. There's is also the concern (this has come partly from my observations experimenting using H2O2 to deal with nuisance algae it takes longer to get the same results than not using H2O2) that along with reducing nuisance algae H2O2 in a sysem will inadvertantly also kill the phages that control nuisance algae.

As far as using it for ich, I need to see the research. Over the years I've seen and ich dissapear on it's own with any overt action on my part. In fact, I now need to see it on several different fish before I'll take steps to control it. What I would like to see is research looking at the possibility of different genotypes including the possibility of aquarium adapted types.

My question is about using sponges to solves DOC.

Sponges are essential for corals to survive in a reef system. But they are a two edged sword and can cut both ways as shown by the research.

Instead of just proclaiming something won't work perhaps best seek solutions that might. Day we stop trying is the day this hobby and others stop progressing because we chose to just accept defeat or stick to old habits because that's all we believe or trust.

I absolutley agree with this. I've been questioning the dogma I see in the hobby since I first realized back in hte '90s high PO4 levels don't corrleate with nuisance algae. Searching for why uncovererd lots of research showing how "gurus" had misled aquarists, making assumptions and not verifying thier beliefs. Same thing is happening with DOC.

Let's simplify this vs taking sides.

Can sponges remove DOC concerns both naturally occurring as well as those created by hydroxyls? Based on what I've read and understood it seems they can therefore perhaps with the advent of cryptic zone we find a strategy that ensure these no longer remain the hurdle to throwing those dreaded buckets away. Can't see anything other than DOC and undetectable coral warfare remnants being a concern.

If you'd read the researech I've posted you'd know sponges are very effecient at processing DOC very fast, on the order of hours. None of the research on hydroxyl ions support your claims about it.

Again, I need to correct you, these processes and DOC are not undetectable, as aquarists we may not be able to test for them easily but they are in our systems as assuredly as water is.

As I pointed out in an earlier post and concerns noted above, the problem with breaking down SOME (not all of it as you've presented) of the refractory DOC in an aquarium with hydroxyl radicals is it's converting DOC not available for microbial growth into forms that are available for microbial growth. When this happens it seems obvious to me, we have the same problem we have with adding labile DOC or the DOC from algae with increased microbial growth. This can cause anoxic conditions in coral microbiomes and or cause pathogenic shifts in coral microbiomes or result in increased sponge products that can cause a phase shft from coral to algae.

As reef ecosytems are pehaps the most complex ecosystem on hte planet, as tempting as it may be, trying to simplify it is going to miss not a little but miss a lot. A gaurentee if we refuse to consider the research.

As for "dreaded buckets" I've seen lots of inovative methods of semi and fully automated water change systems . But even using just buckets doesn't seem like that much of a chore. This 90 gallon system was maintained for over a decade by a 50+ grandmother after her husband left it to her (61 when she moved to Floorida with her boyfriend). She didn't have issues doing weekly 5 gallon water changes, hauling the water ~50' from the water station set up in her garage. And she never had to dose anything either. (I know it's not a good pic but I would point out the generic green Rhodactis mushrooms she has grown to 8" to 10" diameter.)



And this 600 gallon system (500 display + ~100 in the sumps) required me to haul 30 gallons every week about 75 yards from the water station to the tank. Weekly time to do maintenance including water change and running an algae magnet over the glass was less than an hour. So I don't see water changes taking that long even with moderately large systems.

 

[GARRIGA]

Not that I haven't wanted to read all the research but more about available time to read all the research or fact I may not comprehend it. I'm not a scientist. I'm a highly educated finance guy that excels at reverse engineering complex problems mostly by attacking one issue at a time and then solving for residues from that solution as there's always some side affect.

I'm also not the type that will take anything to the nth degree trying to understand every nuance. Life is too short and as I get older getting shorter.

Don't rely purely on other's experience because we all do things differently and there might be one variable that causes everything to change.

How my house is built there's no option for automating water changes. Nice to have. Not happening. I'm not dealing with changing out required % on a potential 400g main system and 100g combined QT for fish and separate for inverts. I refuse to do it for my 20g experiment and that's less than a bucket.

I trust your experience and knowledge but I don't have the time to acquire same or read every scientific piece of literature on the various subjects pertaining to reef keeping or corals in general. Way too much to digest and interpret. It's a hobby and not a life endeavor.

Something that I believe needs clarifying. My approach to using peroxide and/or ozone in-conjunction with UVC will be as a final polish post filtration periodically as a means of cleansing a portion of the water similar to running an entire tank full through dialysis. In tank peroxide treatments will be tested in my 20H with first fish and then corals to see what ppm can be applied before stress shows. Granted this won't provide evidence of long-tern affects yet HumbleFish participants doing similar and last I check didn't see detrimental results and positive may just be anecdotal but still I'm going to test the theory. I test everything and take nothing for granted or at face value.

Going to incorporate sponges to see how that helps. Might work. Might not. Only one way to find out. Both cryptic and sun loving. To me some more interesting than Acros. No offense to Stick lovers.

BTW, I'm just pointing out what I plan to do and at no time telling others but everything evolves based on change which only happens if we do something out of the norm. Comfort went out with the stone age.

Now if you're telling me that at some point you or another ran identical systems to what I'm planning in all aspects then I'd take caution but that's impossible since I've yet to finalize that which I'm going to do and it's ever evolving as I learn. For example, tell me DOC can be an issue with OH or algae and another says sponges might help and my path changes. Still not carrying buckets.

Fact is I'm trying to replicate nature best I can where corals, sponges and algae coexist and OH occurs naturally. To what extent I can replicate that in the confines of a tank with considerably less water volume per inch of real estate is unknown but try I must because WC aren't happening and if I fail then Discuss or something else will prevail but fail I must because that's just me.

Regrets for not having tried greater than regrets for having failed. I should have asked her to the prom. Just saying

 

[GARRIGA]

Here’s a podcast covering many of the steps I’m considering. BTW, the bio reactor appears to be nothing more than a pond style filter using K1 media. They don’t get into how they increase oxygen input to maximize detritus decomposition but that’s something I believe can be utilized within a canister by simply not filling it up fully and allowing the K1 to spin and collide naturally. My idea for oxygen infusion being peroxide dosing but not exactly sure how to deploy it yet.

Also talks about OH converting DOC to being more consumable by bad bacteria although seems to be perhaps it also feeds good bacteria. Not sure.

POC removal via sediment filtration another good point which I think easier solved via Big Blue canisters vs roller mats plus flocculant could be used to make that process more efficient.

Mention of cyano and I’ve asked several times if that’s actually detrimental and yet to get a response. Perhaps cultivating that removes DOC. Quite honestly, don’t exactly find it ugly and easy enough to blow it away from around corals although proper flow should be steady solving that

Point being this podcast not focused towards eliminating a WC yet many discussion points I believe could be used towards reducing them or perhaps eliminating them.

Funny part being this obsession with roller mats and sumps and skimmers then forcing every solution to work within those confines. Yet something like the bio reactor mentioned better than a wet dry. Dump the roller mat perhaps and add a series of sediment filters gradually decreasing from coarse to 5 micron and those lower micron don’t need to be run 24/7. Same with UV-C or ozone or peroxide. Everything applied correctly can help.

An open mind to new approaches that might just be tweaks on prior failures however a prerequisite to getting away from those dreaded buckets because I’d rather be lazy and pushing the envelope then changing perfectly good water to solve that which might have another solution. When I started water was dumped to solve ammonia. No one does that anymore except fir goldfish kept in a bowl and today we have Betta Tanks that eliminate that nonsense as well.