Anyone detect clear evidence of a fluoride effect?

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

My question would be do increased flouride levels aid-in this process? In other words, at what point is it helping coral, vs just being used in, or to drive abiotic deposition? Just pouring money into making new rock, not growing coral tissue.

Yes, that is the question, but I’d state it more starkly:

Is there any benefit to having fluoride incorporated into coral skeletons?

FM tosses out the random comment that it makes them stronger, but there’s no data to support that and making them weaker by disrupting the crystal seems equally probably in the absence of data. Extrapolating from effects of fluoride on a different chemical, hydroxyapatite and calcium phosphate crystals, as in teeth, where it makes them more acid resistant, seems unjustified to me without evidence.

That said, I think it is unlikely that fluoride promotes more abiotic precipitation as such interloper chemicals usually disrupt precipitation, rather than promote it. These other interlopers that disrupt precipitation include magnesium and phosphate.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

My question would be do increased flouride levels aid-in this process? In other words, at what point is it helping coral, vs just being used in, or to drive abiotic deposition? Just pouring money into making new rock, not growing coral tissue.

Keep in mind theres a differencd between increased and maintaining NSW.

Im also curiousnwhy theres a plateau at that .5ppm area where it no longer is consumed or significantly reduced.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Keep in mind theres a differencd between increased and maintaining NSW.

Im also curiousnwhy theres a plateau at that .5ppm area where it no longer is consumed or significantly reduced.

The apparently preferred configuration is two fluoride ions in place of one carbonate. If it is random incorporation into calcium carbonate, then the incorporation will either drop linearly with the fluoride concentration drop (red line in graph) or as the square of the concentration drop (meaning half the concentration will incorporate at 1/4 the rate; black line in graph).

I expect the latter is more likely, requiring two fluorides to enter the slot for a carbonate at about the same time, but without experiments or knowing the detailed incorporation mechanism, one cannot know for sure.

In any case, a drop as the square of the concentration will tend to look fairly plateau like unless you run for long times.

2.8: Second-Order Reactions

Many important biological reactions, such as the formation of double-stranded DNA from two complementary strands, can be described using second order kinetics. In a second-order reaction, the sum of …

chem.libretexts.org

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes, that is the question, but I’d state it more starkly:


FM tosses out the random comment that it makes them stronger, but there’s no data to support that...

I will just say it, starkly:

His steady stream of pontifications are self serving to both his product sales and his reputation, be it for sales, ego or both... I personally think Claude is a charlatan that does more damage to the understanding of reef science than he does good.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

The apparently preferred configuration is two fluoride ions in place of one carbonate. If it is random incorporation into calcium carbonate, then the incorporation will either drop linearly with the fluoride concentration drop (red line in graph) or as the square of the concentration drop (meaning half the concentration will incorporate at 1/4 the rate; black line in graph).

I expect the latter is more likely, requiring two fluorides to enter the slot for a carbonate at about the same time, but without experiments or knowing the detailed incorporation mechanism, one cannot know for sure.

In any case, a drop as the square of the concentration will tend to look fairly plateau like unless you run for long times.

2.8: Second-Order Reactions

Many important biological reactions, such as the formation of double-stranded DNA from two complementary strands, can be described using second order kinetics. In a second-order reaction, the sum of …

chem.libretexts.org

One thing i very much appreciate about your posts is
1. The willingness to repeat yourself even 1000x to ensure new reefers get the opportunity to learn; and
2. I dont mind reading literature and putting in effort to find answers, but the nature of both the terminology and the vastness of information in the biology/chemistry space for those unfamiliar, makes it nearly impossible to locate a starting point, determine relevancy of the literature, and then translate/interpret and break down into digestsble format. For that, I very much appreciate your contributions.

 

[strich]

From a layman's POV it would seem, based on the studies I've seen, that it's relatively easy to bring Fluoride to levels where it has a potential negative effect on bio-health. With no obvious or well-studied upside at this stage, it seems at best a waste of money and at worst a dangerous roll of the dice.

@Randy Holmes-Farley are you aware of this article on "The analysis of fluoride ion and its effect of Fe content in the coral skeleton"? The article is beyond my casual interpretation but the lede says (this may be out of context) "The addition of 1.5 g/L F− ions significantly reduces the coral growth by 25%.".

 

[Marc Pardon]

From a layman's POV it would seem, based on the studies I've seen, that it's relatively easy to bring Fluoride to levels where it has a potential negative effect on bio-health. With no obvious or well-studied upside at this stage, it seems at best a waste of money and at worst a dangerous roll of the dice.

@Randy Holmes-Farley are you aware of this article on "The analysis of fluoride ion and its effect of Fe content in the coral skeleton"? The article is beyond my casual interpretation but the lede says (this may be out of context) "The addition of 1.5 g/L F− ions significantly reduces the coral growth by 25%.".

I have got the impression that my Acropora colonies get lighter in colour (decrease in zoanthella) when I dose Fluoride as stated before. Iron has the characteristic of increasing the density of the zoanthella (from article @Hans-Werner - Hans Werner Balling). In my opinion I see an explanation in this article : "The coral absorbs F− ions in the coral growth with their effect on Fe's absorption rate".

 

[Hypnotize]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Does Strontium precipitate Flouride? I had stable Flourid for about 2 months but my Strontium was dropping pretty consistently because I was testing how much it drops per week and now I brought it back up from around 4,5 to 9 and noticed on my ICP that Flourid fell from 1,3 to 0,8.

Any connection there?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

One thing i very much appreciate about your posts is
1. The willingness to repeat yourself even 1000x to ensure new reefers get the opportunity to learn; and
2. I dont mind reading literature and putting in effort to find answers, but the nature of both the terminology and the vastness of information in the biology/chemistry space for those unfamiliar, makes it nearly impossible to locate a starting point, determine relevancy of the literature, and then translate/interpret and break down into digestsble format. For that, I very much appreciate your contributions.

Thank you. I appreciate the comment.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

@Randy Holmes-Farley

Does Strontium precipitate Flouride? I had stable Flourid for about 2 months but my Strontium was dropping pretty consistently because I was testing how much it drops per week and now I brought it back up from around 4,5 to 9 and noticed on my ICP that Flourid fell from 1,3 to 0,8.

Any connection there?

Strontium fluoride appears to be more soluble than calcium fluoride, and there is far more calcium in seawater than strontium, so unless it is in some special environment, I do not believe strontium fluoride will precipitate from seawater when both the strontium and the fluoride are at normal seawater levels or lower.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

From a layman's POV it would seem, based on the studies I've seen, that it's relatively easy to bring Fluoride to levels where it has a potential negative effect on bio-health. With no obvious or well-studied upside at this stage, it seems at best a waste of money and at worst a dangerous roll of the dice.

@Randy Holmes-Farley are you aware of this article on "The analysis of fluoride ion and its effect of Fe content in the coral skeleton"? The article is beyond my casual interpretation but the lede says (this may be out of context) "The addition of 1.5 g/L F− ions significantly reduces the coral growth by 25%.".

I cannot open it right now, but that’s a massive amount of fluoride. More than a thousand times natural levels. Not surprised it does bad things.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I have got the impression that my Acropora colonies get lighter in colour (decrease in zoanthella) when I dose Fluoride as stated before. Iron has the characteristic of increasing the density of the zoanthella (from article @Hans-Werner - Hans Werner Balling). In my opinion I see an explanation in this article : "The coral absorbs F− ions in the coral growth with their effect on Fe's absorption rate".

That’s Fe in the skeleton, not necessarily in the animal. I can’t open it right now, but that F- level in the abstract is more than 1,000x the natural level in seawater.

 

[Marc Pardon]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tions_sinks_and_replenishment_in_reef_aquaria

While an elevated concentration of iron increases
number of zooxanthellae in corals but decreases
growth rate (Ferrier-Pages et al., 2001),
enrichment with copper decreases zooxanthellae
density and can partially bleach corals (Jones,
1997). No signicant change was detected in any
other function after exposure to copper between
0.01 and 1.0 mg.L-1 (Howard et al., 1986).
The mechanism of bleaching is competition
of heavy metal ions with iron for uptake (De
Haan, 1984; Pätsikkä et al., 2002; Hirose,
2006), inhibition of photosystem II by copper
outcompeting iron (Burda et al., 2002) and by
induction of oxidative stress by various heavy
metals (Pinto et al., 2003)

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

https://www.researchgate.net/public...tions_sinks_and_replenishment_in_reef_aquaria

While an elevated concentration of iron increases
number of zooxanthellae in corals but decreases
growth rate (Ferrier-Pages et al., 2001),
enrichment with copper decreases zooxanthellae
density and can partially bleach corals (Jones,
1997). No signicant change was detected in any
other function after exposure to copper between
0.01 and 1.0 mg.L-1 (Howard et al., 1986).
The mechanism of bleaching is competition
of heavy metal ions with iron for uptake (De
Haan, 1984; Pätsikkä et al., 2002; Hirose,
2006), inhibition of photosystem II by copper
outcompeting iron (Burda et al., 2002) and by
induction of oxidative stress by various heavy
metals (Pinto et al., 2003)

All of that seems reasonable, but I’m not sure how it relates to this thread?

 

[ReeferZ1227]

I cannot open it right now, but that’s a massive amount of fluoride. More than a thousand times natural levels. Not surprised it does bad things.

Its also not easy to achieve. The common products available range from
2-4g/l NaF with suggested max daily doses of ~.6ppm IIRC. It also seems to drop from NSW rather fast in my limited experience.

 

[Marc Pardon]

All of that seems reasonable, but I’m not sure how it relates to this thread?

How do u know for sure what happens in the skeleton (lower absorption of iron due to fluoride dosing) also not happens in the zoanthella? I am trying to search for a reason why my acropora gets lighter in colour when I dose fluoride. For me it seems logical that the same principles will occur .... So less iron is taken by the zoanthella so the density decreases and you get lighter colors. The same situation as occurs with copper. It "steals" the place of iron .....

An overdose will bail out the zoanthella like u would have with copper.

Sorry Englisch is not my main language and I try to describe it as good as it gets

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

How do u know for sure what happens in the skeleton (lower absorption of iron due to fluoride dosing) also not happens in the zoanthella? I am trying to search for a reason why my acropora gets lighter in colour when I dose fluoride. For me it seems logical that the same principles will occur .... So less iron is taken by the zoanthella so the density decreases and you get lighter colors. The same situation as occurs with copper. It "steals" the place of iron .....

An overdose will bail out the zoanthella like u have with copper.

Sorry Englisch is not my main language and I try to describe it as good as it gets

I don’t have a reason to think it relates or doesn’t relate. But the effect is at 1000x normal fluoride levels, where far more fluoride is getting into the skeleton, perhaps making it unfriendly for iron incorporation. I don’t really see a reason to think the process involves to coral animal in any way. Just like strontium is incorporated with or without a coral animal directing it.

 

[rtparty]

Weren’t people talking about colors getting darker and better earlier in the thread?

Or am I confusing threads…

 

[areefer01]

Weren’t people talking about colors getting darker and better earlier in the thread?

I think there is one or two in this thread stating that they observed better color or a change. First couple of pages. I'd check to see if they are running any of the additive based methods like moonshine as that may muddy the waters a bit vs hobbyist A adding it because a ICP result told them to.

Not knocking either just one is dosing to replace vs the other dosing to correct. To me they are not the same.

 

[rtparty]

I think there is one or two in this thread stating that they observed better color or a change. First couple of pages. I'd check to see if they are running any of the additive based methods like moonshine as that may muddy the waters a bit vs hobbyist A adding it because a ICP result told them to.

Not knocking either just one is dosing to replace vs the other dosing to correct. To me they are not the same.

I think it just alludes to the fact that it is all anecdotal and opinion based