Anyone detect clear evidence of a fluoride effect?

[ReeferZ1227]

While the core purpose of this thread is for Randy to collect information, It is an open discussion. If pointing out areas were correlation may be thin, or observation my be questionable (ambiguous photo evidence for example) is being "memed" in echo chambers outside of this forum, then I am fine with that.

I am not against dosing anything that can be shown to be beneficial. Questioning anecdotal accounts of those benefits is well with reason and is part of the discussion. In fact, I would love for there to be substantiated evidence (for or against) so that I can apply the information to my reef.

"If you have not tried it, you are not qualified to participate in the discussion" is a very short sighted take.

Well, to be honest you are the prime candidate to really help the discussion here.

You have a mature old tank. You claim you have good PE, or had in the past. I would recommend you to take a before pic, pay $20 ,for a bottle of flouride, and correct 1ppm and report results with some pics. Thats a solid $20 value/experiment for the rest of the community.

Instead, frustratingly, we get the complete opposite, not only do we get the opposite, we get criticism - when i posted a picture that objectively illustrated the benefit in my tank. The overall tone isn't one of openmindedness that it could be beneficial.

@Randy Holmes-Farley understand an agree with your points above. keep in mind, theres a gajillion variables in the zoa example. Some zoas will grow in a puddle like aiptasia. Some will melt like some SPS if you look at them wrong. I suspect someone with zoas thats trace dosing isnt trying to grow the same low end zoas that tanks reported no issues with. I suspect theres plenty of high end zoa tanks that dont dose much, but my point above should be considered in drawing any conclusions.

 

[FranklinDattein]

I was talking with a friend about this topic (his tank was ROTM in July 2023) and he claims that his acros lose the whiteish background color on the deep tissue, when he stops dosing fluoride. He experimented with stopping more than once and had the same results.
The light color on the deep tissue is highly desired by many SPS keepers, as it adds contrast and resembles more colosely the color form a wild colony.

I though it would be interesting to share and it his experience is different than nos there, including myself.

For reference, I get the same effect in tissue color when I manage to keep phosphate under 0.05 ppm, which is nearly never as I don’t chase it.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Well, to be honest you are the prime candidate to really help the discussion here.

You have a mature old tank. You claim you have good PE, or had in the past. I would recommend you to take a before pic, pay $20 ,for a bottle of flouride, and correct 1ppm and report results with some pics. Thats a solid $20 value/experiment for the rest of the community.

I dose Triton Core7 - I assume it has fluoride in it. They do not disclose how much. I do not ICP test. If/when I do, then I would likely dose a few things that are proven. That said, I don't see how results like people are reporting can be correlated without some care in control and testing over several cycles and an extended period.

Moreover, in a few decades of reefing, I have yet to find many small things that make a difference noticeable enough to track with a few photos.

Instead, frustratingly, we get the complete opposite, not only do we get the opposite, we get criticism - when i posted a picture that objectively illustrated the benefit in my tank.

I am sorry, but I did not find your photos compelling for or against, as they were not taken in a manner in which they could be compared. Very nice photos and coral though.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

For reference, I get the same effect in tissue color when I manage to keep phosphate under 0.05 ppm, which is nearly never as I don’t chase it.

Thanks for the info.

When you say " I get the same effect in tissue color when I manage to keep phosphate under 0.05 ppm" can you clarify what that means? You lose the deep tissue color, or gain it when phosphate is below 0.05 ppm?

 

[FranklinDattein]

Thanks for the info.

When you say " I get the same effect in tissue color when I manage to keep phosphate under 0.05 ppm" can you clarify what that means? You lose the deep tissue color, or gain it when phosphate is below 0.05 ppm?

The acros lose color on the deep tissue between the branches. This increases contrast and is considered by many as more visually pleasing.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

The acros lose color on the deep tissue between the branches. This increases contrast and is considered by many as more visually pleasing.

The acros lose color with the low phosphate, or lose color when it is higher?

 

[ReeferZ1227]

The acros lose color with the low phosphate, or lose color when it is higher?

My interpretation was lower, wont speak on his behalf but this is common knowledge for most SPS keepers.

Whats interesting is he finds this to be desired, i find it indicative of starving/dieing coral and why ULNS is dead among the SPS community as far as I can tell.

 

[SDchris]

Whats interesting is he finds this to be desired, i find it indicative of starving/dieing coral and why ULNS is dead among the SPS community as far as I can tell.

So is this high or low nutrient? And should I see any changes with Fluoride addition?

 

[FranklinDattein]

The acros lose color with the low phosphate, or lose color when it is higher?

On low phosphates, more specifically at around NSW levels - 0.03-0.05ppm.
Also, I wouldn't say they lose color overall. They lose color only on the deep tissue and get a brighter appearance overall, bringing them closer to the colors of wild colonies. This is often attributed to the loss of zooxanthellae, hence less brown tones.

I don't have before and after photos of the same colony, but here are some examples:

0.03ppm

Also 0.03ppm. This colony becomes a single shade of green when Po4 goes above 0.03

Example of colony on relatively high PO4 at 0.2ppm

Example of two colonies freshly collected in the GBR:

 

[Big E]

On low phosphates, more specifically at around NSW levels - 0.03-0.05ppm.
Also, I wouldn't say they lose color overall. They lose color only on the deep tissue and get a brighter appearance overall, bringing them closer to the colors of wild colonies. This is often attributed to the loss of zooxanthellae, hence less brown tones.

I don't have before and after photos of the same colony, but here are some examples:

0.03ppm

Also 0.03ppm. This colony becomes a single shade of green when Po4 goes above 0.03

Example of colony on relatively high PO4 at 0.2ppm

Example of two colonies freshly collected in the GBR:

Low readings on a test kit aren't a defining reason for pale coloration. It's more specifically about throughput of nutrients.
Example--- A system running at P04 of .03 with 3 fish is not the same as one that has 6 fish and the same .03 test results. Every demarcation level is going to be different from system to system depending on throughput.

Not specifically to your comments but the ULNS is dead comments people make are misleading. Sps dominant systems have advocated .03-.10 for close to 25 years. This was called low nutrient levels.
The UNLS moniker was only used talking about Zeovit because it stripped everything from the coral only to have to put it back in.

Where experiences have changed is the levels where higher nutrients above common levels affect growth and color. The ranges are much higher than the most popular practices. There are certain species of acros that like more nutrients and others that don't as well.