Anyone detect clear evidence of a fluoride effect?
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drolmaeye
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I may have missed it, but has anyone replied in the thread suggesting a *negative* fluoride effect? Is there an approximate level that is considered harmful?
I just got back my first ICP analysis (ATI) on a six-month-old frag system and fluoride was described as critically high (2.35 mg/l as compared to an ideal value of 1.29 mg/l). Only a few other elements (K, Sn, Al) are above normal (and I have a reasonable explanation for K and Al), so wondering why this particular element is elevated, and is there any reason to be concerned?
Note that I have been dosing 5 ml/day AFR to maintain alkalinity at ~8.5 dKH, and I dosed KNO3 (NeoNitro) for about a month to add ~1ppm/day nitrate (stopped a few weeks ago).
I just got back my first ICP analysis (ATI) on a six-month-old frag system and fluoride was described as critically high (2.35 mg/l as compared to an ideal value of 1.29 mg/l). Only a few other elements (K, Sn, Al) are above normal (and I have a reasonable explanation for K and Al), so wondering why this particular element is elevated, and is there any reason to be concerned?
Note that I have been dosing 5 ml/day AFR to maintain alkalinity at ~8.5 dKH, and I dosed KNO3 (NeoNitro) for about a month to add ~1ppm/day nitrate (stopped a few weeks ago).
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Randy Holmes-Farley
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I do not recall seeing negative effects reported, but I also don't think it often gets overdosed to know (except in the research paper at over 1,000 ppm lol).
Tavero
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As I have already mentioned to you a few months ago, fluoride was the one element that finally stopped my zoanthids from melting. Dosing fluoride was the only change I did to my tank at that time, after they struggled for over two years (and I tried a lot other things). They recovered in a few weeks after that.
Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).
Yeah I agree generally with that you are saying but at this point I am looking to try something else. My Zoa's are doing much better than there were when this whole process started but I am not getting the results i truly want and still have random issues with polyps closing and shirking. I...
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A few weeks ago they started to struggle again. This time having depleted a lot of metallic trace elements. But that is another story.
Yes in my opinion fluoride is somewhat important for the the health of zoanthids.
ReeferZ1227
Valuable Member
"Yeah but i dont believe you and ive never tried and it clearly doesnt work anyway no matter what, not possible, not enough science, etc."As I have already mentioned to you a few months ago, fluoride was the one element that finally stopped my zoanthids from melting. Dosing fluoride was the only change I did to my tank at that time, after they struggled for over two years (and I tried a lot other things). They recovered in a few weeks after that.
Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).
Yeah I agree generally with that you are saying but at this point I am looking to try something else. My Zoa's are doing much better than there were when this whole process started but I am not getting the results i truly want and still have random issues with polyps closing and shirking. I...
A few weeks ago they started to struggle again. This time having depleted a lot of metallic trace elements. But that is another story.
Yes in my opinion fluoride is somewhat important for the the health of zoanthids.
cilyjr
Valuable Member
I've been adding a flouride additive since the last week of June of 24 (or maybe the first week of July? I can't remember exactly the first time. I dripped today just when I bought it) as stated earlier.
I took a couple of pictures and the people who wanted to see a positive change from fluoride saw it and those who didn't either set the pictures were not to their satisfaction or they didn't see it. As a result, I decided it wasn't worth my time to try to take the pictures.
I see my tank everyday and personally I do not see any big difference since adding fluoride. Once I run out I will not likely purchase it again.
The second Triton ICP test I took showed roughly similar levels of fluoride (actually slightly decreased). Since the first ICP test had a slightly higher level and I had never dosed it at that point, I am thinking either something in the tank is using it, One of the tests was inaccurate, or The bottle I purchased is just RO water.
I took a couple of pictures and the people who wanted to see a positive change from fluoride saw it and those who didn't either set the pictures were not to their satisfaction or they didn't see it. As a result, I decided it wasn't worth my time to try to take the pictures.
I see my tank everyday and personally I do not see any big difference since adding fluoride. Once I run out I will not likely purchase it again.
The second Triton ICP test I took showed roughly similar levels of fluoride (actually slightly decreased). Since the first ICP test had a slightly higher level and I had never dosed it at that point, I am thinking either something in the tank is using it, One of the tests was inaccurate, or The bottle I purchased is just RO water.
Tavero
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To be fair, I do understand Randy's suspicion when it comes to anecdotal evidence. Most of reefers haven't worked in the scientific field and have no clue about design of experiments. But we can't afford to wait for science to catch up with our hobby. Just seeing marine scientist using tunze pumps and radion lights in their laboratories just shows how far ahead we are.
ReeferZ1227
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I
Would never insult someone who has done so much for the hobby including enable me to learn so much to be successful with it. He remains neutral in nearly ever post ive ever seen and always suggests what may or may not happen. Admirable at the least. The posts i was poking fun of surely arent his work.
I shared my negative experience with it. Wiped out all my red TNT Anacropora. Andre of Reef Moonshiners is who told me it was the fluoride. He blamed ATI fluoride specifically even though I had been dosing it for months with zero effects (positive or negative.)
Pod_01
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Out of curiosity, did he provide any reason why ATI Flouride was the cause?
I gather from your original response there was not much on the why…
Just curious… from that response it sounds like he was interested in selling his bottle….
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As I have already mentioned to you a few months ago, fluoride was the one element that finally stopped my zoanthids from melting. Dosing fluoride was the only change I did to my tank at that time, after they struggled for over two years (and I tried a lot other things). They recovered in a few weeks after that.
Mystery Zoa melt, my search for a cure (follow my journey).
Yeah I agree generally with that you are saying but at this point I am looking to try something else. My Zoa's are doing much better than there were when this whole process started but I am not getting the results i truly want and still have random issues with polyps closing and shirking. I...
A few weeks ago they started to struggle again. This time having depleted a lot of metallic trace elements. But that is another story.
Yes in my opinion fluoride is somewhat important for the the health of zoanthids.
I'm not questioning the observation, but what about the successful zooanthid keepers that are not dosing fluoride? Fluoride dosing seems like a reasonably advanced method that many folks do not use.
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For others, I would explain my concerns as follows.
My concern with taking one or a few anecdotes to generate a conclusion (as opposed to using them as a starting point to actually examine something in detail based on the anecdotes) are:
1. They can be due to test error. My magnesium rose 50 ppm overnight. That's an anecdote. Do we simply accept that some folks really have such changes? No. We need further study or analysis.
2. They can be due to coincidence. Folks VERY often report changes when the say they did nothing. There's one today in this forum. Meaning they just don't know what caused it. If someone institutes a new procedure, and soon after sees an effect, it may be just like the unknown cause changes, but happened close in time to the husbandry change. Concluding the husbandry change caused it may not be accurate.
3. They can be for reasons not exactly aligned with the conclusion. If you start dosing supplement X and observe an effect, unless you know everything in that product and everything it can do, then picking out one component (perhaps the only one you actually know is there) and ascribing the effect to that component may be incorrect. Dosing Lugols for iodine, for example, does add iodine, but the I2 present may also change the forms of many other trace elements by oxidizing them to a different oxidation state. The I2 may also directly react with chemicals on the surfaces of bacteria and coral tissues. Observed effects might be due to iodine, and iodine may be the only component the manufacturer tells you is there, but one must be wary of concluding that is how the product caused an effect in your tank.
4. Reef aquariums are extremely complex systems. Doing something in one tank may give entirely different results in a different reef tank. Doing something in a slightly different way in one tank may give different results in a different tank. Adding iron might make pest algae grow faster in one tank and reduce its growth in another tank, for example, depending on what else uses the iron and how that other growth can impact the competition for other need chemicals, space, etc.
All of this is why I started this other thread a while back:
Reefers may over-rely on personal experience to accept or reject truth
OK, I know that's a provocative title, but hear me out. From many, many discussions I have had with reefers over the past 25 years, it is clear to me that many folks easily accept ideas that mesh with their experience, and strongly reject those that do not. Unfortunately, this reliance on...
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Curious? Is that the criteria for having valid or informed skepticism of claims that will not be made fun of?
If so, I would ask then. Does that include your opinions about those same claims or are those open to be "poked" fun at?
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He gave no reason as to why it was ATI fluoride specifically. I didn’t accept it then and definitely don’t accept it now.
It was absolutely a sales pitch for RM products but that’s okay. For profit companies have to sell product
ReeferZ1227
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No im referring to the purpose of the thread inquiring of those that have dosed flouride and either observed or did not observe a difference and then those that have done none neither, opining with no past, present or future observations to provide.
Obviously the contributions related to the mechanics of it are also very valuable, not detracting from the biological contributions of course.
Those are the kind of posts that get memed about outside R2R and stifle progress as much as the unsubstantiated claims, arguably more.
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Randy Holmes-Farley
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I'll just comment on that with an example of how a "no doser" can usefully contribute:
One of the posts above suggests he observed zooanthind problems when not dosing fluoride. Folks successfully growing zooanthids and not dosing any fluoride would seem to be a pertinent contribution to understanding that possible effect despite never having used it. It's a helpful way to try to sort of out complex issues.
Tavero
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Well, I'm not sure if fluoride is actually consumed or if just a certain concentration needs to be present for healthy growth (like nitrogen in air for land dwelling organisms). If it's the latter, then this is a explanation for all the successful zoanthid keepers out there that don't dose. I will know in a few months when Im going to do another icp oes.
Btw fluoride is actually present in all-in-one, balling light, and a lot of iodine supplements. Therefore many reefers may dosing it without even knowing it.
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While the core purpose of this thread is for Randy to collect information, It is an open discussion. If pointing out areas were correlation may be thin, or observation my be questionable (ambiguous photo evidence for example) is being "memed" in echo chambers outside of this forum, then I am fine with that.
I am not against dosing anything that can be shown to be beneficial. Questioning anecdotal accounts of those benefits is well with reason and is part of the discussion. In fact, I would love for there to be substantiated evidence (for or against) so that I can apply the information to my reef.
"If you have not tried it, you are not qualified to participate in the discussion" is a very short sighted take.
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Just clarifying that, yes, fluoride is in some supplements, but its presence in some of them, such as a two part, does not imply there is any amount to offset consumption. Many methods, such as original TM Balling and ESV two part, will contain it, but the amount present just offsets the drop when salinity corrections take place, and does not offset any consumption at all. That said, some other types of supplements will help maintain it.
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