Anyone detect clear evidence of a fluoride effect?

[Lavey29]

Anyone see a clear effect of any sort in a reef tank when starting or stopping dosing of just fluoride and nothing else?

I've been dosing fluorine twice a week. I dose AF Build, 3 drops every other day at night. ICP showed low fluorine levels which I attributed to the AF Build dosing which is why I now dose the concentrated fluorine twice abweek. Just 3 drops also. I have a hige growth spurt going on in the tank with all my corals particularly SPS. Can I say for certain fluorine is causing it? Not really but circumstantially it sure seems to have helped my tank.

 

[harper]

When I correct after icp it does seem to have a burst in growth and color. Who knows which element or maybe just a feel good. F seemed like it was doing something as with RM elements I was adding a lot of ml. But when I decided to do the math and make my own F It's a very small amount. Very week stock gives the false impression that a lot is being added each correction.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Agree- don’t want to get sidetracked in a tangent debate.

 

[Heres_doe_]

FWIW I had an enlarger and was loading my own 35mm cassettes in grade school... That was the late 70s annd early 80s. By the mid 80's I was fiddling around with color processing and printing. Photography has been a lifelong hobby for me.

I don't doubt some things change coral coloration and growth. I don't want to sidetrack this thread with my skepticism or call anybody out, but asking a group of believers and non-believers if they see results is going to most break down partly lines, even if placebos were used.

Judging photographs for subtle (or not so subtle) color improvements (or regression) is a fools errand either way.

If I look at the RM, Zeovit, or FM fan groups, every item on the menu discretely provides "noticeable" improvement in color, growth, polyp extension, fluorescence, etc. Maybe one or two or 5 of those items do. But if you add up all of the claims then the tanks that use all of those products would have compounding effects that would absolutely knock your socks off and be unattainable without the use of all of those products. I have yet to see that (even remotely) be the case.

I couldn’t keep acros for nothing they all died the same way and all parameters were good. Soon as I hit the tank with RM the dying corals went from brown dying to colored and growing within 2 weeks. That was the only thing I was adding to the tank. I def seen a major difference. Now that’s as a whole. I can’t say what any of these elements do as far as making them grow and keeping everything alive. I just know it works. I only icp every like 3 months.

 

[Righteous]

When I correct after icp it does seem to have a burst in growth and color. Who knows which element or maybe just a feel good. F seemed like it was doing something as with RM elements I was adding a lot of ml. But when I decided to do the math and make my own F It's a very small amount. Very week stock gives the false impression that a lot is being added each correction.

I just read a post where someone spilled their whole bottle of RM copper into their tank. So I think it’s a good idea things are dilute as a matter of safety. Be careful out there folks!

I checked Randy’s recipe and it looks like he suggested a dilution that gives 22ml to raise 1ppm F for 100L. I think that’s a good safety margin.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/post-your-diy-additives-here.344149/post-10120419

 

[ReeferZ1227]

2.2g of NaF, consistening of 1g Flouride mixed with 1000mL will give you the Reef Moonshiners concentration. ATI and AF is similar, ReefMinerals (BRS) is 2x strength, and triton is slightly weaker. This is all off of memory, the one i know for sure is the RM.

Using the RM spreadsheet to raise F by 1mg/l in 454L it required 454mL

One thing is for certain, margins on trace elements are probably best in the entire hobby.

 

[Marc Pardon]

How reliable are the measurements for F with ICP/ ion chromatographs? ATI claims 98%. We are aiming in the PPM range from 0,5 till 1,5 mg/liter.

On a dutch forum somebody did the same sample with two different vendors:
1 = 1 mg/liter (Modern Reef)
2 = 0,4 mg/liter (Triton)

 

[robanister]

After a year of working on this I am dosing 20ml per week in 120 gallon. My next icp goes out in 3 weeks so I'll see where I sit. I have noticed better purples and blues and better sps extension. I have also noticed my yumas get more bubbly. Overall growth and thicker flesh it there too. I also had more base out in corals before fixing this. I'll keep you updated.

 

[rtparty]

How reliable are the measurements for F with ICP/ ion chromatographs? ATI claims 98%. We are aiming in the PPM range from 0,5 till 1,5 mg/liter.

On a dutch forum somebody did the same sample with two different vendors:
1 = 1 mg/liter (Modern Reef)
2 = 0,4 mg/liter (Triton)

What’s even more fun is to send the same samples to the same vendor and see how different the reports come back.

The tests and results are still being worked on but early reports are not promising IMO.

 

[Righteous]

What’s even more fun is to send the same samples to the same vendor and see how different the reports come back.

The tests and results are still being worked on but early reports are not promising IMO.

I’ve used both Triton and Oceamo at the same time, and alternating. The reports always seem to be within reasonable margins of error. I do these tests around monthly.

For fluorine specifically the differences were within 0.2mg/l. My next test which I was going to run in about 1-2 weeks I’ll take two both at the same exact time and can post them.

 

[areefer01]

For fluorine specifically the differences were within 0.2mg/l. My next test which I was going to run in about 1-2 weeks I’ll take two both at the same exact time and can post them.

What does Moonshiners recommend the fluorine to be at?

 

[Righteous]

What does Moonshiners recommend the fluorine to be at?

I don’t know, but I’ve been testing around 1mg/l with dosing. NSW is 1.2-1.4 I believe.

 

[KStatefan]

What does Moonshiners recommend the fluorine to be at?

Post #106 shows 1.5mg/l in the picture

 

[areefer01]

Post #106 shows 1.5mg/l in the picture

I did not see that - and it is a big picture.

I don’t know, but I’ve been testing around 1mg/l with dosing. NSW is 1.2-1.4 I believe.

Thanks.

For fluorine specifically the differences were within 0.2mg/l. My next test which I was going to run in about 1-2 weeks I’ll take two both at the same exact time and can post them.

Pardon me for the order of quotes but the reason why I was asking is because of this post. It made me go back at the ICP data I have out of curiosity and fun. My display is a bit over 7 years old, mixed reef, and I didn't really start collecting ICP data until 2018 or so. Or at least keeping it. This is ATI ICP below. I have a couple Oceamo results but not in the data below due to differences of machines and/or businesses. So working left to right young display, small colonies to right being larger colonies of LPS and Acropora.

Doesn't really dip below .49 but also isn't something I specifically does for. In fact all I use is All For Reef. All the talk had me curious is all.

 

[Righteous]

I did not see that - and it is a big picture.



Thanks.




Pardon me for the order of quotes but the reason why I was asking is because of this post. It made me go back at the ICP data I have out of curiosity and fun. My display is a bit over 7 years old, mixed reef, and I didn't really start collecting ICP data until 2018 or so. Or at least keeping it. This is ATI ICP below. I have a couple Oceamo results but not in the data below due to differences of machines and/or businesses. So working left to right young display, small colonies to right being larger colonies of LPS and Acropora.

Doesn't really dip below .49 but also isn't something I specifically does for. In fact all I use is All For Reef. All the talk had me curious is all.

Interesting that it trends toward 0.5ppm which is around my lowest, and coincides with other reports that it never bottoms out to zero.

@Randy Holmes-Farley Can the ICP OES/MS test to zero that you are aware of?

 

[areefer01]

Interesting that it trends toward 0.5ppm which is around my lowest, and coincides with other reports that it never bottoms out to zero.

I'm not sure but since you asked I went ahead and sent off a message to ATI. Should hear back in a day or two most. They are usually pretty good and I see you reached out to RHF.

Hope your day is well.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Unsure Regarding flourine and if the test will register 0, i assume so since various other components will produce 0.

When i had neglected WC and only dosed some AFR my flourine was down to .6ish. Seems to be the case for most. Strange it takes a material amount daily to maintain it, but then it just stops if not maintained at all.

 

[areefer01]

When i had neglected WC and only dosed some AFR my flourine was down to .6ish. Seems to be the case for most. Strange it takes a material amount daily to maintain it, but then it just stops if not maintained at all.

Interesting. I dose AFR (100 ml/day) in my 210 system and do somewhat regular water changes. 20 gallons every two weeks. Fluorine is one of the elements in their supplement list.

Also per my comment above about reaching out to ATI they responded already. I asked what is the lowest result or value that it can measure for Fluorine. Reply back was: 'The lower detection limit for fluoride in the IC (fluoride cannot be measured with the ICP) is 0.1 mg/l.'

Edit: This is assuming I asked the question properly...

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Interesting. I dose AFR (100 ml/day) in my 210 system and do somewhat regular water changes. 20 gallons every two weeks. Fluorine is one of the elements in their supplement list.

Also per my comment above about reaching out to ATI they responded already. I asked what is the lowest result or value that it can measure for Fluorine. Reply back was: 'The lower detection limit for fluoride in the IC (fluoride cannot be measured with the ICP) is 0.1 mg/l.'

Edit: This is assuming I asked the question properly...

I dose 112mL/day into my 125, but i only can afford half my dkh/day with AFR. The other half comes from 4.3L of kalk, nearing 3dkh per day consumption.

I currently do WC to try to maintain, but im likely going to convert to RM. Im awaiting ICP results currently to see where im at.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I couldn’t keep acros for nothing they all died the same way and all parameters were good. Soon as I hit the tank with RM the dying corals went from brown dying to colored and growing within 2 weeks. That was the only thing I was adding to the tank. I def seen a major difference. Now that’s as a whole. I can’t say what any of these elements do as far as making them grow and keeping everything alive. I just know it works. I only icp every like 3 months.

I'm just trying to understand what you are saying. You started the RM method and the only thing that was added to the husbandry practice was fluoride? Or you mean the whole RM method saved the corals?