Analyzing Hanna Ammonia checker Hi784, chemistry and performance

[MnFish1]

Mn

I'm concerned that it does not read zero

calibrated seneyes read zero on tenths ppm nh3 99.99% of the time after setup according to the rules, their logs show.

and I have yet to see a single 0 read on hanna, to align with the seneye posts en masse. so that leaves hanna in question, not seneye in my opinion.


**if it's utility to indicate change is accurate/sensitive then that makes up for a poor baseline assessment in my opinion, for $59 total dollars invested it can be used to make or refute cycling proofs.

I think seneye's bottom line reading is more accurate based on the myriad posts showing no real toxic impact from claimed ammonia events in reef, we naturally run far away from the risk line in my opinion (because we all mimic the same surface area to volume to circulation ratios pretty much)

Yes - Thats why I kind of implied - without saying it explicitly - I would not use it. But - again - as we both know - total ammonia - is different in saltwater tanks

 

[brandon429]

After reading Taricha's measures on how fast a reef tank controls overload ammonia, I find the fact that we haven't assured the guy with the 9 month old reef that his cycle is not broken fully astounding.

 

[MnFish1]

After reading Taricha's measures on how fast a reef tank controls overload ammonia, I find the fact that we haven't assured the guy with the 9 month old reef that his cycle is not broken fully astounding.

Every test has a sensitivity and specificity.. I am not impressed (personally) with Hanna.

 

[brandon429]

wrong thread/edit

 

[Dan_P]

I find the fact that we haven't assured the guy with the 9 month old reef that his cycle is not broken fully astounding.

Maybe we were not as convincing as the ammonia test results

 

[brandon429]

his alert badge reading is a powerful hedge in favor of the dark side heh it confounds the heck out of me.


because that means Taricha's observed nh3 drop rate is highly variable tank to tank, among giant aged stacks of rocks right in the middle dead center of flow carrying a totally normal bioload much less a huge spike test.

and then again if it's just a misread on the alert badge/expired or something and we don't know/ all T's findings here can be used as proof that the guy's 9 month reef did not uncycle.

 

[Dan_P]

his alert badge reading is a powerful hedge in favor of the dark side heh it confounds the heck out of me.


because that means Taricha's observed nh3 drop rate is highly variable tank to tank, among giant aged stacks of rocks right in the middle dead center of flow carrying a totally normal bioload much less a huge spike test.

and then again if it's just a misread on the alert badge/expired or something and we don't know/ all T's findings here can be used as proof that the guy's 9 month reef did not uncycle.

Do we know that the tank was cycled in the first place?

 

[brandon429]

it was that reef which is nine months old, and looks like this:


he had 8 ppm alert posted three weeks ago, and about that bad still running as of today he says. Taricha's 1 day drop seemed to have stopped for that guy above if we consider non digital testing over digital test kit findings.

it's my opinion that guys cycle did what T has outlined, and something is off in the testing for him. he sure did dump in a lot of prime at the start, before posting to us, but that's claimed to not be a test kit foul/mystery continues.

 

[Dan_P]

it was that reef which is nine months old, and looks like this:


he had 8 ppm alert posted three weeks ago, and about that bad still running as of today he says. Taricha's 1 day drop seemed to have stopped for that guy above if we consider non digital testing over digital test kit findings.

it's my opinion that guys cycle did what T has outlined, and something is off in the testing for him. he sure did dump in a lot of prime at the start, before posting to us, but that's claimed to not be a test kit foul/mystery continues.

I am unfamiliar with what an unicycled tank looks. Maybe it looks like this though it is hard to imagine it remaining uncycled 9 months. Therefore, the tank is not nine months old but one month and mistakenly reported as cycled. Mystery solved

 

[taricha]

To me there are two unanswered Qs that interest me on this topic - I'll use the hanna checker to quantify but it applies to all Salicylate total ammonia chemistry.

1) Demonstrate positive interference of amines: @Dan_P and I keep saying things like amino acids and proteins can positively interfere with the salicylate total ammonia test, but I don't think data has been provided.

2) Demonstrate negative interference of reducing agents like dechlorinators: Prime, thiosulfate, hydroxymethanesulfonate (ClorAm-X.) And perhaps answer when interference might be small enough to ignore.

I'll get around to them eventually. Not this week though.

 

[Dan_P]

To me there are two unanswered Qs that interest me on this topic - I'll use the hanna checker to quantify but it applies to all Salicylate total ammonia chemistry.

1) Demonstrate positive interference of amines: @Dan_P and I keep saying things like amino acids and proteins can positively interfere with the salicylate total ammonia test, but I don't think data has been provided.

2) Demonstrate negative interference of reducing agents like dechlorinators: Prime, thiosulfate, hydroxymethanesulfonate (ClorAm-X.) And perhaps answer when interference might be small enough to ignore.

I'll get around to them eventually. Not this week though.

You have provided evidence that ammonia detoxifiers destroy chlorine and interfere with the salicylate method, i.e., make the test read zero. Some years back I came across a paper that demonstrated that amino acids will give positive ammonia tests. I think you looked at glutamine already in our Prime study. The amino acid may only react about 10% as much as ammonia.

 

[taricha]

Some years back I came across a paper that demonstrated that amino acids will give positive ammonia tests. I think you looked at glutamine already in our Prime study. The amino acid may only react about 10% as much as ammonia.

Was looking back and saw some data where you found glutamine and glutamic acid showed up as 0.25 moles of ammonia for each 1 mole of the amino acids.

 

[Malcontent]

AmmoLock is often correlated with off-the-scale API ammonia freshwater tests. Per the SDS it's an amine. Somewhat amusing because it's also an API product.

 

[Dan_P]

AmmoLock is often correlated with off-the-scale API ammonia freshwater tests. Per the SDS it's an amine. Somewhat amusing because it's also an API product.

Yes, good call, Ammolock is a different beast from Prime but I can’t remember what the claimed mechanism

 

[brandon429]

I realize this scope of this thread isn’t what reef tanks do with ammonia, it’s the tester. A free bump is a bump

but that snippet of what ammonia does in reef tanks as measured by Taricha is causing ripples in the cycling community especially in those not owning digital kits ~ when I post this thread for them to read.

I’m amazed at the rate people find reef tanks completely unable to control ammonia in total opposition to findings above. They’re on api mostly, vs digital measures, so it remains to be seen what reef tanks do for the masses

what our hobby needs: a clear, pre tested and factually known data plot on what it takes to make a matured reef display full of rocks stop controlling ammonia. We don’t have that list, it doesn’t exist. It’s being consulted on a recurring basis though, in non digital ammonia test threads. Everyone knows dead fish can spike ammonia but minus dead fish, the ways in which ammonia stops getting controlled in reef tanks is lengthy in non digital test threads while the actual published causes for that condition have yet to be written.


I would be so incredibly happy to know the instances Taricha could run that initial ammonia control benchmark on his reef tank, and there was no drop at the end of the day as shown above. The written list of things causing that inability are worth gold for cycle troubleshooters

 

[MnFish1]

I realize this scope of this thread isn’t what reef tanks do with ammonia, it’s the tester. A free bump is a bump

but that snippet of what ammonia does in reef tanks as measured by Taricha is causing ripples in the cycling community especially in those not owning digital kits ~ when I post this thread for them to read.

I’m amazed at the rate people find reef tanks completely unable to control ammonia in total opposition to findings above. They’re on api mostly, vs digital measures, so it remains to be seen what reef tanks do for the masses

what our hobby needs: a clear, pre tested and factually known data plot on what it takes to make a matured reef display full of rocks stop controlling ammonia. We don’t have that list, it doesn’t exist. It’s being consulted on a recurring basis though, in non digital ammonia test threads. Everyone knows dead fish can spike ammonia but minus dead fish, the ways in which ammonia stops getting controlled in reef tanks is lengthy in non digital test threads while the actual published causes for that condition have yet to be written.


I would be so incredibly happy to know the instances Taricha could run that initial ammonia control benchmark on his reef tank, and there was no drop at the end of the day as shown above. The written list of things causing that inability are worth gold for cycle troubleshooters

Unfortunately - to me - this entire post makes no sense

 

[brandon429]

That's your default no thinking mode like when you trolled Tarichas prime thread for 22 pages, you always lead with that. Same thing when you trolled Dr Reefs thread from page 98 onward it's what u do.

 

[brandon429]

The test loading Taricha applied to his reef to demonstrate the daily command is beyond the worst case scenario anyone with a broken cycle thread will face

This tank above in pics, the 9 month old reef claimed unable to handle ammonia, isn't even facing a test loading like Taricha shows reefs can

You knew that before posting though.

Mn select ignore, I have again for a few years, you wreck others works by logged habit.

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

It's not a gas. In seawater it will carry a negative charge spread across the oxygen atoms. NH2SO3- Do you think it will penetrate a membrane and give a false reading of NH3 gas? If seneye and ammonia alerts is based on membrane technique - which I do not know for sure - IMO - it should...

www.reef2reef.com

Anyone who would argue for that many pages and just destroy...

 

[MnFish1]

That's your default no thinking mode like when you trolled Tarichas prime thread for 22 pages, you always lead with that. Same thing when you trolled Dr Reefs thread from page 98 onward it's what u do.

Actually - it reflected my thoughts - your post to me did not make sense in the English language. If you feel I'm attacking you or something else - please ask a moderator to read what you wrote in response to the question asked. Sorry - I can't understand what at all you meant. I trolled no one.

 

[MnFish1]

The test loading Taricha applied to his reef to demonstrate the daily command is beyond the worst case scenario anyone with a broken cycle thread will face

This tank above in pics, the 9 month old reef claimed unable to handle ammonia, isn't even facing a test loading like Taricha shows reefs can

Mn select ignore, I have again for a few years, you wreck others works by logged habit.

Does Prime actually "Detoxify" free ammonia, NH3?

It's not a gas. In seawater it will carry a negative charge spread across the oxygen atoms. NH2SO3- Do you think it will penetrate a membrane and give a false reading of NH3 gas? If seneye and ammonia alerts is based on membrane technique - which I do not know for sure - IMO - it should...

www.reef2reef.com

Anyone who would argue for that many pages without any work done themselves to show isn't someone i can respect.

What is "test loading" - in common English.
What is "daily command" in common English.
What is "isn't even facing a test loading like Taricha shows reefs can" in common English - though - here - I think I know what you mean.
Where did I: "you wreck others works by logged habit."

Please - start to use the things that others have used - just report any post you think is inappropriate to a moderator - or to the powers that be. Frankly - All I said - is that your post - in English - did not make sense. A couple of others have said the same thing. On another thread (I think it was another one) - said - they thought English was a second language. I said I did not think so. In any case - there seems to be an understanding problem - perhaps English is not your mother language - if not - I apologize. If it is - I do not understand it. This is not slamming - or dissing - or criticizing someone - its basically 'completely not understanding what you are saying'