Would you invest a grand for a KH Guardian?

[Daniel@R2R]

I would agree with those who have said that it would be good to separate the monitor from the doser. If you're selling to guys who are keeping SPS heavy tanks, then they've all got something to dose with already. If you could reduce the price by removing the doser, that would make the product more accessible (depending on how much you can reduce the cost by).

 

[tj w]

For that amount of money or even a little more they could have incorporated a controller making it a truly competitive and complete package.

I totally agree with this. Why not incorporate a controller into this. That way there would be no compatibility issues,parts,etc. That would be something I'd be willing to pay a premium for as I'm sure others would as well.

 

[Chris155hp]

I would agree with those who have said that it would be worse to separate the monitor from the doser. If you're selling to guys who are keeping SPS heavy tanks, then they've all got something to dose with already. If you could reduce the price by removing the doser, that would make the product more accessible (depending on how much you can reduce the cost by).

Agreed! Personally I am too heavily invested in dosers with very accurate stepper motors to justify the expense of another one. A stand alone unit for a reduced price is interesting.

 

[ebushrow]

Here is an industrial alk monitor unit.
https://www.km.kongsberg.com/ks/web...F39F9536AC620A95C1257EDC0048B162?OpenDocument

And this is a research paper on using PH to measure alk.

http://alkalinitymeasurementdevice.onmason.com/files/2014/06/ECE-492-Design-Document_V4.pdf

I would bet a ton of coral money that this alk monitor cost 5-10X more than the 1K here

 

[ebushrow]

I totally agree with this. Why not incorporate a controller into this. That way there would be no compatibility issues,parts,etc. That would be something I'd be willing to pay a premium for as I'm sure others would as well.

you would then have to raise the cost to 2K+....few would probably consider it at that price point...you need to find a price that you can sell the unit at and recoup all the R&D money spent on the project....it has only been recently that 2 companies have come out with a true alk monitor....it has been needed for 25+ years in reefing....

We should all stop getting caught up on the price being a bit higher than you would like and be INCREDIBLY happy that this technology now exists for reefers to use...This is a long time coming in the reefing world, and in such a small population of people (unlike owning a dog for instance) that there are companies willing to invest the enormous amounts of R&D money to help us keep our tanks.

It does amaze me how many people will drop 1000.00 on a apex and hundreds more on apex accessories (pumps, feeders, etc) or 800.00 on a MP-60, yet scoff at 1K for monitoring and controlling a vital part of their tanks biology/water quality and are outraged. I agree this price point will exclude a number of people, but lets be honest, the a lot of the same people would also forego a Tunze for a Jebao pump to save money... not everything is free or a non-profit business...the development and commitment to bring a product like this to the market is expensive and needs to be recouped.

Can I buy this item at 1K...probably not at this point, but I cannot see anyone bashing the product or the company for the price point or what "it doesn't have". Lets all show some appreciation for this innovation and have something to strive for the next time we look at that 100.00 frag at the store or online...

I am not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers or start any kind of argument, however, this is the perspective we should use when this equipment is presented and not an adversarial one I see in so many posts here.

 

[seastar]

Nope, nope, and more nope. This can and will be done far cheaper in the near future. Hopefully this suggested price motivates more of the inventors out there to figure the solution out.

 

[tj w]

I believe a lot of people were answering the question at the top of this thread. I for one am truly excited to finally be able to have this technology in our hobby. I was stating my opinion. That's it.

 

[Daniel@R2R]

you would then have to raise the cost to 2K+....few would probably consider it at that price point...you need to find a price that you can sell the unit at and recoup all the R&D money spent on the project....it has only been recently that 2 companies have come out with a true alk monitor....it has been needed for 25+ years in reefing....

We should all stop getting caught up on the price being a bit higher than you would like and be INCREDIBLY happy that this technology now exists for reefers to use...This is a long time coming in the reefing world, and in such a small population of people (unlike owning a dog for instance) that there are companies willing to invest the enormous amounts of R&D money to help us keep our tanks.

It does amaze me how many people will drop 1000.00 on a apex and hundreds more on apex accessories (pumps, feeders, etc) or 800.00 on a MP-60, yet scoff at 1K for monitoring and controlling a vital part of their tanks biology/water quality and are outraged. I agree this price point will exclude a number of people, but lets be honest, the a lot of the same people would also forego a Tunze for a Jebao pump to save money... not everything is free or a non-profit business...the development and commitment to bring a product like this to the market is expensive and needs to be recouped.

Can I buy this item at 1K...probably not at this point, but I cannot see anyone bashing the product or the company for the price point or what "it doesn't have". Lets all show some appreciation for this innovation and have something to strive for the next time we look at that 100.00 frag at the store or online...

I am not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers or start any kind of argument, however, this is the perspective we should use when this equipment is presented and not an adversarial one I see in so many posts here.

I don't see why controller integration would cost an extra $1K especially since most full controller packages retail for less than the markup you're suggesting. I do think most of us are happy to see this technology coming to market from this vendor and several others. I personally think this will be the next big leap in reefing tech, and I'm geeked out about that! As stated above, most of us are answering the question asked by the OP, and I haven't seen anyone bashing them for their price point or tech...I do see people answering the question and offering opinions about how it could be better (which I think was the point of the OP's question). Ultimately, this thread is not an announcement of a product, but a question posed about the proposed product, and I think the responses have been fair to that question.

 

[Eric83]

I would only use it to monitor, not control a doser. Having it control a doser based on it's testing results would add a potential failure point. I would be able to see a drift and change doser schedules manually.

That being said, I can't see spending $1,000 on it. It's convenient, but is it $1,000 more convenient than a Hanna checker once a week? That would be a tough pill to swallow.

 

[Dumaurier7]

you would then have to raise the cost to 2K+....few would probably consider it at that price point../QUOTE]

Why $2000 ? there are many PERFECTLY capabale computers out there for sub $500

..you need to find a price that you can sell the unit at and recoup all the R&D money spent on the project....it has only been recently that 2 companies have come out with a true alk monitor....it has been needed for 25+ years in reefing....QUOTE]

Of course they do but it must be reasonable , affordable and practical ! If they had quoted $3000 of the sacrifice of your first born would you think this ok too ?

[QUOTE="ebushrow,We should all stop getting caught up on the price being a bit higher than you would like and be INCREDIBLY happy that this technology now exists for reefers to use...This is a long time coming in the reefing world, and in such a small population of people (unlike owning a dog for instance) that there are companies willing to invest the enormous amounts of R&D money to help us keep our tanks. .

Normal everday people who aren't millionares have a nasty habit of getting caught up in the ptice of things ! It is a long time coming yes , but I dont believe anyone is doing us a favour they are in it for the profit , they've identified an untapped part of the hobby/ market and have decided to exploit it since most all the other areas are well saturated which is clearly indicated bythe vast variety of equipment available at a reasonable price

 

[Waterjockey]

I don't think anyone was bashing the product, or was "outraged". People were answering the question posed, "would you be interested at 'x' price?", and they are giving their honest feedback. It doesn't do the developers of these products any good to blow smoke and say "yes please", if you wouldn't....I would want to hear all opinions about what my potential consumers might have.
My take is, if I was setting up a new reef, and could buy a monitor/dosing package at a price point I could afford, then yes, I would be interested. For many with established, stable systems, they have already invested in a dosing system that works for them, and they might not be interested in changing the way they manage their alk. This user group (me included), might however, be interested in a system that will do the monitoring automatically...with a log and perhaps alerts via email or text or sound or whatever, if the device detects alk swinging outside user definable parameters.
By selling the monitor separate from the dosing system you may quadruple your market. That's my 2 cents.

 

[sinekal]

I'm not concerned with the price point. It might be a bit high for me to just buy without considering my budget, but I spent more on lights so I'm sure I could get there. The price is probably about in line with where I'm guessing Neptune will land, considering you will probably need an apex to run it and a dos to get the ability to make time adjustments to alk intraday like this device is proposing. I would actually expect an apex with an alk monitor and DOS to cost quite a bit more than 1k (just an apex and dos today is $1100 today). Granted you will get other functions with the apex, but breaking out just the alk monitor/dos cost will probably be about the same.

I'm not concerned about not dosing the same calcium. I don't generally adjust my calcium doser when I adjust my alk. Testing calcium weekly or so and adjusting at that point is sufficiently stable for me. If cal is trending up or down doesn't seem to matter as long as it stays over a value and within a range.

I'm not certain which method of alk calculation in an automated device is better, one based on a ph tritation or an alk tritation. I would imagine the answer is more based on the accuracy of the measuring device, probe vs eye, and in the ability of the algorithm to use the information, and the ability of the pumps to consistently move the same amount if fluids. That's quite a few variables.

I do agree a device that could adapt to any concentration of solution would be nice, or nicer, to have. The challenge I see is if it had to be smart, i.e., it had to figure out your tank volume and concentration of solution then you would get swings on set up. I.e., there would have to be default values that the algorithm would adjust based on its next test. For some of us that really need stable alk that single set up challenge could be a make or break. I bet more than one of you haven't switched at a calcium reactor due to this exact risk. The complexity needed in an algorithm that is that smart is much greater too. I'm sure it's possible, but would probably affect price and time to market. A simpler solution would to have the option via a setting to change concentration. I'm the meantime, if you prefer soda ash to bicarbonate you can easily make an equivalent concentration.

Finally, I'm not concerned about the paired dosing pump. I actually see this as taking this thing i want so bad, a constant alk monitor, to another level of advantage, the ability to make intra-day adjusts to alk based on demand. This could take stability to a level none of us have really achieved before.

If I were to buy this today I would plug it into my apex so I can kill the switch. I would keep my dosers running and covering about 80-90% of my current demand and would let his cover the difference. In theory it can do so with a great deal more consistency than I can. I would continue to test alk daily for a while, probably quite a while, but would drop it tomsomething like weekly once I felt confident.

By the way I changed my answers from maybe to absolutely based on what I learned from this thread.

 

[reefwiser]

Carlos of Coralvue just posted this video on Facebook.

 

[reef_ranch]

Carlos, can you tell us about the accuracy and precision of the unit? How has it been tested? What is the required maintenance such as calibrating the ph probe and the dosers? The video you posted clearly shows how it works (and it is very cool). The question is how well it works and how hard will it to be to keep it working.

 

[eg8r210]

Everyone has to decide for ones self. There is alot of equipment to do this process. Three pumps a Ph probe and then a controller. So for the money it is fairly priced.

I think everyone has decided for themselves. How many people do you think would be interested in this might already own a doser and a controller? Most people who already own a doser with 3 pumps have the advantage to dose 3 different liquids and not have them all tied up doing one thing. Also this unit requires you to drop the tested water back into the tank without knowing how that might impact the tank long term OR have another container to capture this "waste" water. By the looks of the size of the unit and the possible requirement of a second container to capture the waste I think they are limited to users with larger tanks and room under the stand (provided they would want to hide all this equipment).

Again, I like the idea but think it still needs refinement to support users that just want the testing side of the product. Suggesting users set their current dosers/CaRx to .5 dkh lower than they want and then spending $1k to keep the system at the desired level sounds a bit foolish. Just set your current doser where it needs to be and test daily or weekly to make the small changes.

 

[Chris155hp]

wonder what the maintenance is on the unit. eventually the pH probe will need to be replaced etc

 

[eg8r210]

you would then have to raise the cost to 2K+....few would probably consider it at that price point...you need to find a price that you can sell the unit at and recoup all the R&D money spent on the project....it has only been recently that 2 companies have come out with a true alk monitor....it has been needed for 25+ years in reefing....

We should all stop getting caught up on the price being a bit higher than you would like and be INCREDIBLY happy that this technology now exists for reefers to use...This is a long time coming in the reefing world, and in such a small population of people (unlike owning a dog for instance) that there are companies willing to invest the enormous amounts of R&D money to help us keep our tanks.

It does amaze me how many people will drop 1000.00 on a apex and hundreds more on apex accessories (pumps, feeders, etc) or 800.00 on a MP-60, yet scoff at 1K for monitoring and controlling a vital part of their tanks biology/water quality and are outraged. I agree this price point will exclude a number of people, but lets be honest, the a lot of the same people would also forego a Tunze for a Jebao pump to save money... not everything is free or a non-profit business...the development and commitment to bring a product like this to the market is expensive and needs to be recouped.

Can I buy this item at 1K...probably not at this point, but I cannot see anyone bashing the product or the company for the price point or what "it doesn't have". Lets all show some appreciation for this innovation and have something to strive for the next time we look at that 100.00 frag at the store or online...

I am not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers or start any kind of argument, however, this is the perspective we should use when this equipment is presented and not an adversarial one I see in so many posts here.

Yes, that all sounds great but did you read the title to the thread...Would you invest a grand for a KH Guardian?

They clearly are asking what people think about the price so asking people to not comment on price seems contrary to the OP's reason for making the post. Offering suggestions, comments, etc are worthwhile and seeing the activity in the thread is indicative that people are showing appreciation for innovation and they are excited about what is "just around the corner".

 

[eg8r210]

Carlos of Coralvue just posted this video on Facebook.

Definitely exciting seeing this in action.

 

[BlennyKravitz]

Hold on to your dough guys. if you were to reverse engineer this thing, I think one would discover that it's just a simple group of dosing pumps that measure reagent and your tank water and the uses a colorimeter to test Alk. It just has to flush itself with RO/DI so it doesn't affect the next measurement. Do the math on the parts:

Three dosing pumps $150
Hanna Alk tester $50
Flush system $100?
Tubes and casing $15

I think I am being generous too. That leaves the controller which could be as simple as a couple Raspberry Pi computers?

Will be nice, but I think it's a bit like autonomous driving. It's great for 99.9% of the time, but that one time when something tiny goes wrong, it's all over.

 

[reef_ranch]

Hold on to your dough guys. if you were to reverse engineer this thing, I think one would discover that it's just a simple group of dosing pumps that measure reagent and your tank water and the uses a colorimeter to test Alk. It just has to flush itself with RO/DI so it doesn't affect the next measurement. Do the math on the parts:

Three dosing pumps $150
Hanna Alk tester $50
Flush system $100?
Tubes and casing $15

I think I am being generous too. That leaves the controller which could be as simple as a couple Raspberry Pi computers?

Will be nice, but I think it's a bit like autonomous driving. It's great for 99.9% of the time, but that one time when something tiny goes wrong, it's all over.

That's not how it works at all. From the video it takes a sample of tank water, measures the pH then injects an acid until the pH is less than 5, determines the amount of acid used and computes the Alk. The precision required to accurately compute the Alk using this method should not be underestimated. It's an amazing piece of engineering. Take a look at the industrial units that use the same method. They cost many many times this.