Too much area for beneficial bacteria

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If it is true, as some reefers suggest, that corals do better with ammonia as their source of N than nitrate, then clearly having too much (or any?) places for nitrifying bacteria could be a disadvantage.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Bean, no matter how much you agree with me. I am not making you a copper fish.

Ami that transparent?

 

[Pod_01]

Wow I like it, honestly I wish I done this 6 years ago with my reef tank. Over the last year I been removing some of my rock work to make space and yes it makes things upset and tank needs few months to settle in.
To reduce aggression in fish just feed them more, I feed 4 times a day and there is no aggression. I don’t have experience with aggressive fish.

As some mentioned the rock work you show provides sufficient home for denitrifying bacteria.
I don’t believe more space provides more benefit, likely diminishing returns and more space for algae to grow on.

Your setup follows what Claude Schuhmacher from Fauna Marin recommends. Reduced scape, lot of flow/constant moving water…

 

[brandon429]

high throughput low storage is the new wave in reef longevity design. it's the equivalent of being so rich that every day you wake up, a personal dentist puts you in a chair and removes the little calculus from the day prior, just for a super clean start. they then rasp all teeth, laser the gums, run multiple surface flushes + polish and apply the requisite twenty dollar flouride gel.

an nsa aquascape reef tank is living like that each day, accumulation doesn't factor in those systems.

If a completely eutrophic and wrecked tank with drab green and yellow and gray tones and slumped animals and hazy glass and pockets of blackened waste in the sandbed is A, then this tank here registers as Z.

this tank here is the absolute polar opposite conceptual design to anything that could lead to a eutrophic condition in a reef tank. in thirty years, the biology will run exactly the same as it does now only with antlered corals


without $ bacterial DNA testing

without having to chase "biome supports"

that ripoff is about to fleece the masses


throughput and the export of sloughed materials from all surfaces, the elimination of decay accumulation from all surfaces here, means the inherent biome runs fine, without biological limit, is my prediction.

Removing things, preventing accumulation, is a cheap and free way to get the same quality results 'biome' chasers get, only we can repeat these results for everyone and it can be done without direct bacterial supports or testing. Your tank does not require you to pay aquabiomics money in order to feel good about the bacteria on surfaces... any year that goes by, it just runs and runs and what varies is the degree of physical guiding you give to the surfaces to maintain the crisp look.


biologically, this tank can run without lifespan limits. the design is that powerful for longevity planning. old and big corals grown here are less likely to develop RTN patches, there's big implications in these kinds of systems all from keeping an inherently clean reef mouth.

 

[BeanAnimal]

high throughput low storage is the new wave in reef longevity design. it's the equivalent of being so rich that every day you wake up, a personal dentist puts you in a chair and removes the little calculus from the day prior, just for a super clean start. they then rasp all teeth, laser the gums, run multiple surface flushes + polish and apply the requisite twenty dollar flouride gel.

an nsa aquascape reef tank is living like that each day, accumulation doesn't factor in those systems.

If a completely eutrophic and wrecked tank with drab green and yellow and gray tones and slumped animals and hazy glass and pockets of blackened waste in the sandbed is A, then this tank here registers as Z.

this tank here is the absolute polar opposite conceptual design to anything that could lead to a eutrophic condition in a reef tank.

Except this thread and the OP are not talking about “rip cleans” and it has piles of “storage”.

 

[brandon429]

the example was a study in opposites, this tank rip cleans itself by the hour. I can make links to rip cleans here because this is a tank that will never need one.

This tank became an example in other threads where we discussed impacts from waste accumulation in reef tanks. if you had such threads, I'm sure you could collate your supports as well without ever hearing a word from me.

I also specifically stated that him removing the bioballs, or adding ten pounds more, wouldn't alter the tank's quality or bioload carry at all. I guess in a few years if we get an update here, we'll know something.

 

[Garf]

Ok thanks

Can you detail exactly what brand of "biospheres", I think some of them are a polymer used for a carbon source.

 

[BeanAnimal]

the example was a study in opposites, this tank rip cleans itself by the hour

Please stop making stuff up out of thin air. For somebody who constantly rails against misinformation in the hobby...

. I can make links to rip cleans here because this is a tank that will never need one.

Yes, you tend to steer every thread into that context one way or the other. How the heck do you get from the OPs question and this conversation to DNA testing a fleecing and the rest of the nonsense? Honestly, must you derail every conversation in this manner?

I also specifically stated that him removing the bioballs, or adding ten pounds more, wouldn't alter the tank's upcoming maturation arc. I guess in a few years if we get an update here, we'll know something.

What is an "upcoming maturation arc"? Nonetheless, you have outright contradicted the very point you attempted to make(up) just a sentence or two prior.

You state above in glorious hyperbole that the system with the media removed (leaving the minimal rock scape and bare bottom) would rip clean itself like going to the dentist every morning, implying the one with all of the extra media balls ("storage" as you coined it) would turn into a eutrophic mess.

That contradicts the current and prior statement about removing or adding media having no effect.

 

[BeanAnimal]

If it is true, as some reefers suggest, that corals do better with ammonia as their source of N than nitrate, then clearly having too much (or any?) places for nitrifying bacteria could be a disadvantage.

I assume your logic being that the one would want the coral to process the raw ammonia before the bacteria had a chance, correct?

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I assume your logic being that the one would want the coral to process the raw ammonia before the bacteria had a chance, correct?

Yes. I don't know if it matters or not, but some folks believe strongly that ammonia is a better source for corals than is nitrate.

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

My tank is around 6 months old and I’m really struggling with low nutrients.

The OP's tank is not mature yet - @6-months, lets not get carried away

 

[e34stx]

Can you detail exactly what brand of "biospheres", I think some of them are a polymer used for a carbon source.

Maxspect bio spheres

 

[BeanAnimal]

Yes. I don't know if it matters or not, but some folks believe strongly that ammonia is a better source for corals than is nitrate.

If it was, then (I would think) that the catch 22 (in a closed system such as an aquarium) would be that adding ammonia will drive nitrifying bacterial growth. I suppose this happens until the ammonia additions outrun the rate at which bacteria can grow or have area to colonize?

 

[e34stx]

Thanks for everyone’s help. I will leave the media in for the time being, up my feeding slightly and opted to dose a little ammonium chloride. I will update you over the next week or so.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

If it was, then (I would think) that the catch 22 (in a closed system such as an aquarium) would be that adding ammonia will drive nitrifying bacterial growth. I suppose this happens until the ammonia additions outrun the rate at which bacteria can grow or have area to colonize?

I do not know if one can up the amount of available ammonia by reducing places for nitrifying bacteria to grow. Maybe, maybe not. I would guess at least a little.

It may have a more direct and immediate impact in a tank dosing either nitrate or ammonia.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Maxspect bio spheres

Pretty sure that those are inert and simply "new bio balls" with microscopic pores to house anaerobic bacteria needed to convert the nitrates into nitrogen gas.

The old school "bio balls" were not porous and therefore harbored only aerobic bacteria and could not work to turn the nitrate into nitrogen, so it accumulated.

 

[exnisstech]

It's the roller mat.

They are so effective at removing detritus before it breaks down, this is usually the problem in new tanks that run them.

Unlike a filter sock, where detritus sits in the water and breaks down until the sock is removed, a roller mat doesn't even allow the detritus to sit in the water and break down.

Simply slow down the speed in which is rolls, bypass it some, or even turn it off for a while. Like maybe only allow it ro run at night till things settle down.

Ran into this when I installed a reefmat. Now I just turn it off and let it overflow into the sump. I don't have a set schedule or timer but usually try to turn it off at night then back on in the morning.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Thanks for everyone’s help. I will leave the media in for the time being, up my feeding slightly and opted to dose a little ammonium chloride. I will update you over the next week or so.

My largest concern with removing all of them would be that your minimal rock, bare bottom, etc. do not contain enough anaerobic space to complete the nitrogen cycle. I would imagine that there is a point of diminished return, but would have no way to begin to guess what that is.

 

[e34stx]

My largest concern with removing all of them would be that your minimal rock, bare bottom, etc. do not contain enough anaerobic space to complete the nitrogen cycle. I would imagine that there is a point of diminished return, but would have no way to begin to guess what that is.

I’m leaving them in .

 

[brandon429]

few people actually complete the nitrogen cycle (degassing nitrate) even with stacks of rocks

the last 25 years of reefing was stacks of rocks, and that led into carbon dosing, pellets, plant uptake and six other means to handle increasing nitrate in the tanks.

deep sandbeds were also promised in older articles to denitrify, they usually don't, hence this coming trend to bb and high flow and almost no waste storage whatsoever.