Too much area for beneficial bacteria

[KC2020]

The only thing with feeding so much, will It feed/fuel potential pest/aglae?

No more than dosing to raise nutrients will. In fact feeding offers a better potential for the nutrients to rise in a more natural balance.

Again, feeding so that everything is consumed by the fish in a minute or two and there isn't excessing food laying on the tank bottom is important. Then all that's staying in the water column is what the fish pass through. Fish are not very efficient digesters of many foods so the detritus that builds up in the water and on the bottom of the tank can feed inverts and corals even before it breaks down into NO3 and NO4.

 

[e34stx]

No more than dosing to raise nutrients will. In fact feeding offers a better potential for the nutrients to rise in a more natural balance.

Again, feeding so that everything is consumed by the fish in a minute or two and there isn't excessing food laying on the tank bottom is important. Then all that's staying in the water column is what the fish pass through. Fish are not very efficient digesters of many foods so the detritus that builds up in the water and on the bottom of the tank can feed inverts and corals even before it breaks down into NO3 and NO4.

 

[e34stx]

Ok thanks

 

[John Biddle]

I like the ideas of increasing the feeding and taking the roller mat off line. But with a bare bottom you may find that a couple days off-line, even a week, isn't enough for the detritus to break down. Maybe keep it off line for longer and keep testing to make sure you don't raise your nutrients too much.

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

I have a couple of bio spheres lol taken from an established aquarium. I think so many spheres are just bottoming out my nutrients. The po4 I think is just binding to my rock, hence why I’m having to dose that.

Nice tank. Your tank is not exactly like any other tank. Have you added any other bacteria besides a "couple of bio spheres taken from an established aquarium" ?

@6-months your bio-load is established, beneficial bacteria now have little effect on PO4/NO3 as they should not be growing much. PO4 still binding to your rock is reported common @6-months.

As with removing sand beds, some have problems ( BRS ) and some don't.

I would do as Randy suggested and remove the bio spheres slowly. I would also check nitrite while removing them.

 

[e34stx]

Nice tank. Your tank is not exactly like any other tank. Have you added any other bacteria besides a "couple of bio spheres taken from an established aquarium" ?

Hi, thanks, I add mb7 weekly but have stopped that a month or so ago.

As with removing sand beds, some have problems ( BRS ) and some don't.

it has always been bare bottom from the start.

I would do as Randy suggested and remove the bio spheres slowly. I would also check nitrite while removing them.

i was thinking this, but now there seems to be arguments not to.

 

[e34stx]

I will start the ammonium dosing first to see the effects, is my dosing amount ok do you think? 1ml 6x day spread out. 20g per 400ml solution ammonium chloride? Thanks

 

[lmfbs]

C

Thanks, I don’t really have any Detritus build up as I run a roller mat and a gyre mode each day to effectively back flush the tank into the weir. As before I’m really struggling to raise the nutrients. Just checked and my no3 is 0.7 and po4 is 6 ppb.

Can you help me understand this backflush situation?

 

[e34stx]

C

Can you help me understand this backflush situation?

Hi Yes, I have 2x 350 gyres situated on the top and bottom of the overflow, as it’s a peninsula I didn’t want power heads at the other end. They are running on antisync random mode for most of the day. Periodically the program changes to a high antisync gyre mode with the bottom gyre running for an extended time. This pushes the crap to front glass which then rolls back across the top to the overflow. It’s really effective. I have also added a fine air stone in the return chamber for extra bubble scrubbing if cleaning rock etc when needed.

 

[homer1475]

No such thing as too much surface area for bacteria. Bacteria populations wax and wane according to the bioload.

While you may have an abundance of surface area with the biospheres, your bacteria population will only populate the spheres/rockwork/hard surfaces till there is enough to handle your bioload. No more, no less, so taking them out won't accomplish anything, as your display rockwork/hard surfaces is more then likely housing 99% of your bacteria.

 

[e34stx]

No such thing as too much surface area for bacteria. Bacteria populations wax and wane according to the bioload.

While you may have an abundance of surface area with the biospheres, your bacteria population will only populate the spheres/rockwork/hard surfaces till there is enough to handle your bioload. No more, no less, so taking them out won't accomplish anything, as your display rockwork/hard surfaces is more then likely housing 99% of your bacteria.

Thanks for the reply, again I’m struggling to understand if there are enough bacteria to effectively eat my nutrients will it not bottom out? I grasp there would be enough to handle my bio load, however if the nutrient import and export is net zero if you like, they will never rise. I’m wondering if this is why people end up dosing no3 etc later on? I’m not saying people should just remove loads of surface area but my think was a little may help on raising nutrient levels. One more thing, with the wax wane reference, would you not run into the situation where you are feeding a massive amount to gain nutrients, which in the end 99% would be consumed by bacteria, rather than the tank inhabitants?

 

[homer1475]

Nitrogen cycle is this:

Ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate > Nitrogen gas(this usually does not happen without feeding bacteria with any effectiveness in our tanks, hence water changes to remove pollutants).

Bacteria populations only grow enough to handle the bioload, so even if you have 100 times the surface area for bacteria to grow, they won't populate that surface area unless the bioload calls for it.

Po4 will also be consumed as nitrates are turned into food for bacteria.

In young tank such as yours, there is a ton of biological processes that are maturing and eating your nutrients, as well as your rockwork soaking up nutrients like a sponge. Once your tank matures, and equilibrium is reached, you'll see things balance out.

I would not take out the spheres, not only are they providing more space for bacteria, they make a great place for microfauna to hide and reproduce.

While they do not hurt anything, they probably are not helping much either as 99% of your bacteria is located on your rockwork.

 

[e34stx]

Nitrogen cycle is this:

Ammonia > Nitrite > Nitrate > Nitrogen gas(this usually does not happen without feeding bacteria with any effectiveness in our tanks, hence water changes to remove pollutants).

Bacteria populations only grow enough to handle the bioload, so even if you have 100 times the surface area for bacteria to grow, they won't populate that surface area unless the bioload calls for it.

Po4 will also be consumed as nitrates are turned into food for bacteria.

In young tank such as yours, there is a ton of biological processes that are maturing and eating your nutrients, as well as your rockwork soaking up nutrients like a sponge. Once your tank matures, and equilibrium is reached, you'll see things balance out.

I would not take out the spheres, not only are they providing more space for bacteria, they make a great place for microfauna to hide and reproduce.

While they do not hurt anything, they probably are not helping much either as 99% of your bacteria is located on your rockwork.

Thanks for the reply, I understand what you are saying. Even though my tank is infant, most run into the opposite scenario where nutrients are too high, and that fits perfectly to what you are saying. I think I feed more than enough to try and elevate no3, which I believe normally is the last and longest to convert in the cycle. I don’t have many corals or algae to consume nutrients. The only export I have are the roller mat, skimmer and a massive amount of spheres. Maybe the roller mat is too effective at removal before the matter breaks down. I have never really been in this situation before with my old tanks(fighting to raise nutrients). I know 2 tanks are not the same, however the equipment was near enough identical to this, except the extra bb space.

 

[homer1475]

It's the roller mat.

They are so effective at removing detritus before it breaks down, this is usually the problem in new tanks that run them.

Unlike a filter sock, where detritus sits in the water and breaks down until the sock is removed, a roller mat doesn't even allow the detritus to sit in the water and break down.

Simply slow down the speed in which is rolls, bypass it some, or even turn it off for a while. Like maybe only allow it ro run at night till things settle down.

 

[e34stx]

It's the roller mat.

They are so effective at removing detritus before it breaks down, this is usually the problem in new tanks that run them.

Unlike a filter sock, where detritus sits in the water and breaks down until the sock is removed, a roller mat doesn't even allow the detritus to sit in the water and break down.

Simply slow down the speed in which is rolls, bypass it some, or even turn it off for a while. Like maybe only allow it ro run at night till things settle down.

Ok thanks

 

[BigMonkeyBrain]

Many reef tanks are too clean. Dr. Tim refers to free swimming bacteria that is removed by skimming, etc,. Dr. Sanjay Joshi has an inch of mulm in his sump ! He has a 500-gallon system.

This link may help you;

Beneficial Bacteria in the Aquarium

"Beneficial bacteria" in an aquarium filter are largely responsible for changing somewhat toxic ammonia in fish waste to innocuous nitrate.

aquariumscience.org

 

[BeanAnimal]

I am not sure if Sanjay's sump still collects said mulm. I had a few conversations with him about it nearly a decade ago when he used to come to club meetings here. If I remember correctly it was not a design choice, but more of a maintenance issue where it was just too much trouble to get to it under the elevated platform that the rock sat on. If he shows up this weekend to our Reef Expo I will certainly ask him about it.

 

[Paul B]

I know I use a reverse undergravel filter which I can't clean if I wanted to. But it is loaded with detritus which I view as a good thing and wouldn't remove it if I could. I think that is one reason my tank is over fifty years old.

Any surface where bacteria can grow is a good thing. IMO of course.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I know I use a reverse undergravel filter which I can't clean if I wanted to. But it is loaded with detritus which I view as a good thing and wouldn't remove it if I could. I think that is one reason my tank is over fifty years old.

Any surface where bacteria can grow is a good thing. IMO of course.

My sump has a large pile of rock that sits on a eggcrate platform. Likewise, I have have tons of it in said rock and under the platform. 20+ years old (I lost track)

 

[Paul B]

Bean, no matter how much you agree with me. I am not making you a copper fish.