The Modified Black Box Thread

[McMullen]

Great thread!

 

[reeferfoxx]

Great thread!

Thanks!

 

[reeferfoxx]

One simple test to(the seney has a tiny sensor) crank the light up, put the meter side by side and put a piece of white paper over both meter sensors.
dispersing the light over a broader area should rule out the smaller sensor reading not all of the lights(disco spots).

@saltyfilmfolks
Okay. So, the white paper test kind of flopped on me. I tried a simple 8.5" x 11" white printer paper from staples. It mostly diffused the light so much that readings were inconsistent within inches of moving sensors. Also LUX drop was huge. I think a piece of wax paper would have helped or even better some tissue paper which I have neither.

I did go ahead and take some LUX measurements but only recorded one just because no matter what the differences they were very similar. I used the Mars Aqua light for this test on the white channel only with 120 deg lenses. The blue channel has 90 deg lenses and I felt the white would have more spread. I did go ahead and incorporate my cell phone for a second LUX source. However, the app limit is only 10,000 LUX.

Here is a crappy picture from my tablet. You will notice the lux meter reads 3,200 +/-. Cell Phone reads 3,375 lux. Only off by 100 +/-.


Here is the reading from the Seneye sensor.. LUX reading shows 1,879.


I'm not sure why the reading is so much lower on the Seneye. I guess the point of it not being so important could be made. That said, you would think a device manufactured as a trust worthy meter for measuring light wouldn't foul against a $15 meter or a phone.

Thought?

 

[jason2459]

@saltyfilmfolks
Okay. So, the white paper test kind of flopped on me. I tried a simple 8.5" x 11" white printer paper from staples. It mostly diffused the light so much that readings were inconsistent within inches of moving sensors. Also LUX drop was huge. I think a piece of wax paper would have helped or even better some tissue paper which I have neither.

I did go ahead and take some LUX measurements but only recorded one just because no matter what the differences they were very similar. I used the Mars Aqua light for this test on the white channel only with 120 deg lenses. The blue channel has 90 deg lenses and I felt the white would have more spread. I did go ahead and incorporate my cell phone for a second LUX source. However, the app limit is only 10,000 LUX.

Here is a crappy picture from my tablet. You will notice the lux meter reads 3,200 +/-. Cell Phone reads 3,375 lux. Only off by 100 +/-.
View attachment 518883

Here is the reading from the Seneye sensor.. LUX reading shows 1,879.
View attachment 518884

I'm not sure why the reading is so much lower on the Seneye. I guess the point of it not being so important could be made. That said, you would think a device manufactured as a trust worthy meter for measuring light wouldn't foul against a $15 meter or a phone.

Thought?

Good question why it's so far off and I would take that data and open a support ticket with Seneye and attach the pictures too if possible. I would assume the seneye is in error there and could be fixed with a software update or it's just your seneye.

Which now might spark my interest. Not wondering if its accurate but if its just yours or all of them.

 

[jason2459]

Which app is that?

Edit: nevermind I see it

 

[reeferfoxx]

Good question why it's so far off and I would take that data and open a support ticket with Seneye and attach the pictures too if possible. I would assume the seneye is in error there and could be fixed with a software update or it's just your seneye.

Which now might spark my interest. Not wondering if its accurate but if its just yours or all of them.

I'll send them a support ticket. Sigh. Should I even bother taking par measurements?

 

[jason2459]

I'll send them a support ticket. Sigh. Should I even bother taking par measurements?

I thinking it's all the seneye's with low LUX numbers and if so the PAR meter should be just fine. I do know someone commented about the LUX numbers being low in my thread but I didn't think anything of it at the time as I wasn't focused on LUX measurements or comparing it with anything else.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

@saltyfilmfolks
Okay. So, the white paper test kind of flopped on me. I tried a simple 8.5" x 11" white printer paper from staples. It mostly diffused the light so much that readings were inconsistent within inches of moving sensors. Also LUX drop was huge. I think a piece of wax paper would have helped or even better some tissue paper which I have neither.

I did go ahead and take some LUX measurements but only recorded one just because no matter what the differences they were very similar. I used the Mars Aqua light for this test on the white channel only with 120 deg lenses. The blue channel has 90 deg lenses and I felt the white would have more spread. I did go ahead and incorporate my cell phone for a second LUX source. However, the app limit is only 10,000 LUX.

Here is a crappy picture from my tablet. You will notice the lux meter reads 3,200 +/-. Cell Phone reads 3,375 lux. Only off by 100 +/-.
View attachment 518883

Here is the reading from the Seneye sensor.. LUX reading shows 1,879.
View attachment 518884

I'm not sure why the reading is so much lower on the Seneye. I guess the point of it not being so important could be made. That said, you would think a device manufactured as a trust worthy meter for measuring light wouldn't foul against a $15 meter or a phone.

Thought?

I thinking it's all the seneye's with low LUX numbers and if so the PAR meter should be just fine. I do know someone commented about the LUX numbers being low in my thread but I didn't think anything of it at the time as I wasn't focused on LUX measurements or comparing it with anything else.

It was actually the lux readings and the lux par conversions from the meter that first made me question it. All lights had a conversion of 30 to 35.
Bearing in mind a par meter is literally just a fine tuned lux meter. So not knowing how thier meter worked made me want to know more about how the meter got its results. As you could actually on the cheap just use a Luxmeter meter and with software do a conversion. I tested a beta par meter app that worked basicly that way.
Then a small RGB camera sensor to guage color temp.
Dunno.

 

[reeferfoxx]

It was actually the lux readings and the lux par conversions from the meter that first made me question it. All lights had a conversion of 30 to 35.
Bearing in mind a par meter is literally just a fine tuned lux meter. So not knowing how thier meter worked made me want to know more about how the meter got its results. As you could actually on the cheap just use a Luxmeter meter and with software do a conversion. I tested a beta par meter app that worked basicly that way.
Then a small RGB camera sensor to guage color temp.
Dunno.

It just seems like, even with apogee par meter or the seneye you could say the readings aren't accurate. Or at least accurate within 10 points. I mean if the Seneye is within 10-20 par, I'm ok with that. But I can't defend that when the LUX readings are so far off. Now at the same time, I almost feel confident that the lux readings are low across the Seneye board. Other issue is, Seneye claims the eye on the light meter was designed for underwater use only. Which makes sense considering how the lens looks. But, I distinctly remember sticking my standalone lux meter in a sandwich bag and submersing it into the tank and still getting 25,000lx readings mid-way down. I've yet to see a number above 15,000 under water surface. So it's frustrating at this point.

 

[reeferfoxx]

@saltyfilmfolks

If we refer back to Dana Riddles article about lux to par meters, he saying measuring lux under blue channels aren't accurate. This could make sense because the blue channels really makes the white lens on a lux meter "glow" and most likely would cause inaccurate intensity readings? Possible?

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

even with apogee par meter or the seneye you could say the readings aren't accurate. Or at least accurate within 10 points. I mean if the Seneye is within 10-20 par, I'm ok with that.

yes and I have seen folks get different reading from different metes they own. some use the correction factor some don't. Most are happy with whatever number the get. so not sure on precision of each meter. But Jasons test shw the seney par and apogee par to be head to head.

@saltyfilmfolks

If we refer back to Dana Riddles article about lux to par meters, he saying measuring lux under blue channels aren't accurate. This could make sense because the blue channels really makes the white lens on a lux meter "glow" and most likely would cause inaccurate intensity readings? Possible?

its only at the highest peak of the blue, and many nay say many par me for the same reason, cuz people like to nay say really imo.
Regard less 3 lux meters should read the same. In lux par the loss is taken into account. And he still goes back to lux par for leds. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2013/2/equipment.

in any case meters should all be calibrated to the same values and have the same response. So one not doing that would show either an incorrect calibration or poor meter. its why I did a side by side with mine, its how i calibrate vintage light meters and also cameras. (matching 3 different manufacturers cameras with different compressions and color spaces to appear to closely match If you dont the colorist gets MAD!!)
when I calibrate vintage meters I naturally start at 0, and increase the dimmer to over daylight levels to insure performance over the range.

Years a go we shot a scene in a funhouse with black lights as a gag. We contacted Kodak directly to insure the correct exposure under the light to expose the film. Their recommendation to use the meter exactly as any other light. In that scenario both the meter and the film emulsion by nature both have poor blue responses.

 

[jason2459]

It just seems like, even with apogee par meter or the seneye you could say the readings aren't accurate. Or at least accurate within 10 points. I mean if the Seneye is within 10-20 par, I'm ok with that. But I can't defend that when the LUX readings are so far off. Now at the same time, I almost feel confident that the lux readings are low across the Seneye board. Other issue is, Seneye claims the eye on the light meter was designed for underwater use only. Which makes sense considering how the lens looks. But, I distinctly remember sticking my standalone lux meter in a sandwich bag and submersing it into the tank and still getting 25,000lx readings mid-way down. I've yet to see a number above 15,000 under water surface. So it's frustrating at this point.

Yep, seems the LUX numbers are off. But the PAR numbers seem accurate and consistan5 enough for us which is what I care about.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Yep, seems the LUX numbers are off. But the PAR numbers seem accurate and consistan5 enough for us which is what I care about.

Were you able to confirm that with yours?

 

[jason2459]

Were you able to confirm that with yours?

Haven't had the time to yet but will and imagine it's off too.

 

[reeferfoxx]

Haven't had the time to yet but will and imagine it's off too.

Well, my palms are itching to get a response from seneye. Sadly I have to wait till at least Monday for that lol. All in all, once you have a par meter, par seems to be more important. Considering i'm doing all this for coral coloration and growth. I wish there was a way for Seneye users to have a control to compare par readings for consistency without a second par meter.

I will say I believe the kelvin readings are fairly accurate. After testing the Mars Aqua compared to my modified box, the kelvin difference on the white channels is pretty big. That was my intention on the modified box, though. I felt the white channel to be too warm in color.

 

[jason2459]

The kelvin on the white channel was in range of what the specs were for the white for mine. But once you turn the blues on the kelvin hits a range the seneye can't calculate. The spectral chart though seems pretty good which gives me some confidence in the usefulness of the PUR to see if the lights are hitting the chlorophyll ranges that is considered important for corals. And between my testing and BRS the PAR seems accurate enough.

 

[Pmj]

I have two evergrow IT2040's that I changed out diodes on. It was my first time soldering and it was really easy. Here is the layout I ended up with and really liked. I actually just got Mitras, but I think the black box was brighter. I really don't know if I'll end up selling, it's really nice to have a cheap light, that looks great and you can easily change out parts on. I didn't change or remove lenses so they are stock, but that's something I should probably try as well.

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Haven't had the time to yet but will and imagine it's off too.

Well, my palms are itching to get a response from seneye. Sadly I have to wait till at least Monday for that lol. All in all, once you have a par meter, par seems to be more important. Considering i'm doing all this for coral coloration and growth. I wish there was a way for Seneye users to have a control to compare par readings for consistency without a second par meter.

I will say I believe the kelvin readings are fairly accurate. After testing the Mars Aqua compared to my modified box, the kelvin difference on the white channels is pretty big. That was my intention on the modified box, though. I felt the white channel to be too warm in color.

I would consider borrowing a color meter or look at Vetted App for the camera phone at this point.

blues on the kelvin hits a range the seneye can't calculate.

What range is that, any Idea why?
I had assumed native color on the Mars at 14-16k. My color meter pegs out at 40k. it wont read blue only as its not actually a temperature.

 

[jason2459]

I would consider borrowing a color meter or look at Vetted App for the camera phone at this point.

What range is that, any Idea why?
I had assumed native color on the Mars at 14-16k. My color meter pegs out at 40k. it wont read blue only as its not actually a temperature.

Their answer

https://www.seneye.com/kelvin

 

[saltyfilmfolks]

Their answer

https://www.seneye.com/kelvin

That really didn't explain it .

Not sure what this means.
"The seneye device works out the K of the lamps by passing zyx colour coordinates of the light it receives through a set of known equations. The device can measure very far along the plank line when compared to traditional devices and this is important as the growth of LED's has meant that light sources can in fact have high levels of blue and violet which will very steeply raise K."

This implies theirs is better at reading color than "Traditional devices". I assume that means a color meter?