Swedish fish - behind the scenes rebuilding a public aquarium

[Dr. Dendrostein]

What do you use, any pictures of your pumps? Not being hard

 

[ZaneTer]

I’ll be honest the vast majority of small peristaltic pumps are produced in China and simply rebadged. The accuracy with these little pumps on relatively small volumes of less than a 1L at a time exceeds the accuracy of a stepper motor by quite a large margin, provided it is coupled up to a reasonable PLC.

I would like to see a quality set of dosing heads from a reputable german manufacturer at a reasonable price of less than $20 per head but I don’t know of any yet.

 

[ZaneTer]

@Jomama
We've only given the numbers we want to the company drawing the HVAC. And what signals we want to control the temperature etc. And objected when the draw a large ventilation pipe over the reef tank
So I don't know yet.

How closely do you want to control temperature?

 

[Sallstrom]

You are quite welcome. The cost is generally quite misunderstood. I am offering a free industrial grade controller and I will happily do the programming for free. I use something almost identical on my own reef, bear in mind I am not at home for 3 months at a time.

I will give you some food for thought in a moment regarding costing. I hate GHL after some equipment I had of theirs failed catastrophicly.

Okey. I will look into it when I have a chance. The control system is not something we need to decide this year, so it's no rush.

About the GHL we have had good experiences. Sure, some dosing head have broken but all programming has been solid. But we also have the best GHL support, @Lasse has been our support

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

@Jomama
We've only given the numbers we want to the company drawing the HVAC. And what signals we want to control the temperature etc. And objected when the draw a large ventilation pipe over the reef tank
So I don't know yet.

Good you mention that, keep hvac pipes around tanks, with time dust will bypass filters or schedule maintenance may not be done on time, more dust,when time come to replace indoor motors, more dust scattered, also try to have hvac company when time comes to clean evaporator coils to use none scented chemicals if they can get. There more I'll mention with time

Being underground big help with temperatures

 

[ZaneTer]

Okey. I will look into it when I have a chance. The control system is not something we need to decide this year, so it's no rush.

About the GHL we have had good experiences. Sure, some dosing head have broken but all programming has been solid. But we also have the best GHL support, @Lasse has been our support

You are 100% correct @Lasse is excellent. More so than the actual GHL support team

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I’ll be honest the vast majority of small peristaltic pumps are produced in China and simply rebadged. The accuracy with these little pumps on relatively small volumes of less than a 1L at a time exceeds the accuracy of a stepper motor by quite a large margin, provided it is coupled up to a reasonable PLC.

I would like to see a quality set of dosing heads from a reputable german manufacturer at a reasonable price of less than $20 per head but I don’t know of any yet.

Here in USA, if a product has 60% American made products in it, it's labeled "made in the USA" bummer

 

[Lasse]

@ZaneTer Was it the old GHL dosing pump, Doser 2 or Doser 2.1 that was your problem? Did you use Pl3.xx or Pl 4 to manage it? And a last question - was it together with the app or with GCC ? I had a similar problem with the combination doser 1 (the one that did not use PAB), Pl4 and the app in april this year. I thought it was because I was high of morfin (it was the night after a 10 hours stomach operation - and of course - you should probably not play with sensitive equipment in that condition ) However - it happens another time too - when I was more sober - and it is my believe that it was some bug in the app at that time. It was before the current connection to MyGHL. I have change my dosers to Doser 2.1 after this and have not had any more problems with this. Its only with doser 2 and doser 2.1 that´s possible to dose below 1 ml. I use a doser 2.1 to dose less than 0.1 ml (calculated not measured - yet ) Slowest mode - this pump head give 3.2 ml/minute. I program a switching outlet with a cyclic timer 1 sec on and x sek off. I connect the actual dosing head to react on the index my programmed switch use (index in this case = switching channel - in my case I use 64 for this type of virtual switches) This works perfect. But if you really get 0.1 ml or lesser in this case depends on your calibration. 0.1 is rather small amount. Is the same with pH - your precision with a normal electronic pH meter is in the first decimal and the accuracy depends on your calibration. But you can use the second decimal as a relative indicator and if I with a hobby equipment can be able to program a stable pH around 7.90 (variation 7.88 - 7.92) with help of one fast process (CO2 injection) and one slow process (aeration with CO2 free air) - I think it is a rather good equipment. I have been working with management and regulation in buildings and it is few things that I could do with commercial solutions that I can´t do with a ProfiLux computer - as a plus - most of the things is adapted to aquatic problems and solutions. I may utilize 40% of a profilux computer's ability - normal users - maybe 20 %. What I like with the ProfiLux series is the complexity of the computer and the simplicity of the interface (GCC)

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

Things moving along quite slow with the current aquariums. We haven't moved a coral yet since the closing
But since the tanks working well they can run for some more time, giving us time to build the temporary aquariums.
Today we got rid of some more stuff from the old restaurant. Always fun to use a crowbar In this room we will build up the temporary aquariums. The small tanks in the picture is not the new tanks. We got them for free. Not sure what we will make of them. Grow some algae I think

 

[ZaneTer]

Hi @Lasse

Thank you very much for weighing in. Phew that’s a long message

Ok it was using a master Doser 2.1 with 4 heads connected to a P4 and a KH Director and another doser 2.1 with 3 heads (slave). I used the MyGHL website to remote access and reprogram as I work away a lot.

The system was configured to dose 4ml x 6 times a day of Triton. I woke up to a high pH alarm and discovered the calcium part of the dose being continuously dosed. I tried switching it off via MyGHL but the website wouldn’t allow me to. By the way I have all the photos of this and the email conversation to a german guy, I’m sure I can dig them up although I am certain GHL would not want this public.

Long story short it dumped just over a litre of calcium component into the tank subsequently killing the cast majority of my coral. The next time I got home I removed all of the GHL equipment and threw it away, I couldn’t even sell it off in good conscience.

I think it is important that people understand that equipment can fail, that’s not what I am so angry about. I am furious at GHL for the way they dealt with it. Small disclaimer: I found vinny at GHLUSA to be fantastic to deal with. The german I dealt with was an expletive I am not allowed to use on this forum.

Anyway I replaced it with one of my spare industrial units. It provides me open Ethernet communication or MPI. Less than 1ms scan time. Expansion options. SCADA and/or HMI. Remote access. Diagnostics. It also it completely open to anyone, nothing gets hidden. I use a S7-315 CPU and a 8x12bit analogue input card and a 16di/16do card. With it I have been able to do far more than I could with the GHL offering. I chose to build my own HMI user interface. It has in all honesty cost me less than what I spent on my GHL setup. Currently I have 3 x pH probes, a temperature probe and a load cell, for dosing head calibration, connected to it.

I maintain pH in my reactor between 6.595 and 6.605. Temperature is between 25.8 and 26.2. It goes without saying that the difference between an industrial unit and a hobby grade unit is truly night and day.

You are a clever guy... would you like a real PLC to play with? I have an older 314 CPU spare if you are interested? I can happily post when I get back to england?

Thanks
Zane

 

[Stigigemla]

I would never build such a large system with one single controlling system.
I would use 2 completely separate systems. One to do the controlling and one to monitor what the first system is doing and alarm if something is going wrong. A system will always fail. It is just a question of when. It might take a year or ten or more but it will happen. Maybe it is a new employee doing something stupid. The human factor makes more problems today than the electronics.
And naturally I would have the monitoring system on a separate UPS. And in the maintenance scheme have a control of the UPS as often as the manufacturer recommends.

 

[Brew12]

You are quite welcome. The cost is generally quite misunderstood. I am offering a free industrial grade controller and I will happily do the programming for free. I use something almost identical on my own reef, bear in mind I am not at home for 3 months at a time.

I think this is a very generous offer but there are other things to keep in mind. One of the biggest ones is the software cost. I believe a single seat programming license is $1100USD and they likely would need more than one. Depending on the interface, that could also require multiple pricey licenses. Not an issue for you and I because we have them at no cost to ourselves for work. As a public facility, they wouldn't have that option.

They would also need training on how to make programming changes themselves. They may not always have a volunteer available. I do agree that, if I were going to make a recommendation to a large public aquarium, I would go with the Siemens S7 platform. Next to the Simadyn D platform, its the most robust PLC I have ever used. This museum is likely in that middle ground where they will be large enough that a more industrial solution makes sense but not large enough to make it fiscally feasible, even with little upfront cost.

 

[ZaneTer]

I think this is a very generous offer but there are other things to keep in mind. One of the biggest ones is the software cost. I believe a single seat programming license is $1100USD and they likely would need more than one. Depending on the interface, that could also require multiple pricey licenses. Not an issue for you and I because we have them at no cost to ourselves for work. As a public facility, they wouldn't have that option.

They would also need training on how to make programming changes themselves. They may not always have a volunteer available. I do agree that, if I were going to make a recommendation to a large public aquarium, I would go with the Siemens S7 platform. Next to the Simadyn D platform, its the most robust PLC I have ever used. This museum is likely in that middle ground where they will be large enough that a more industrial solution makes sense but not large enough to make it fiscally feasible, even with little upfront cost.

Brew, as always, you are completely correct. To clarify I was offering a system with all licences included. To be honest I have the vast majority of the code written already and is currently in place on my own tank as we speak

With TIA Portal you can runtime an HMI on a laptop connected directly to the PLC. That’s what I do. I prefer the higher resolution.

Training is an absolute must and would be the number 1 deterrent in my mind. This is not for the faint of heart especially if they want to go into the realms of closed and cascaded loop control. Having said that I really do believe it fits their current situation. It will also allow them to expand and upgrade for substantially less. It communicates via Ethernet or MPI so they can interface it to a huge number of devices.

Here is my little HMI in action.:

I use teamviewer to remotely acces and even small reprogramming via my phone while I am sitting here in Kunming. VPN sometimes required for me because, you know, it’s China.

 

[Stigigemla]

One advantage with Siemens S7 is that it is the most common system in Swedish industry so there are a lot of consultants here knowing it. Ok there is a few Year since I checked but I believe it is still the market leader.
The Profilux has 2 advantages: It is developed for aquatic use and has a lot of preprogramming. The other is Lasse but how many years can he continue?

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

One advantage with Siemens S7 is that it is the most common system in Swedish industry so there are a lot of consultants here knowing it. Ok there is a few Year since I checked but I believe it is still the market leader.
The Profilux has 2 advantages: It is developed for aquatic use and has a lot of preprogramming. The other is Lasse but how many years can he continue?

The other is @Lass but how many years can he continue?

Lasse, you can't skydive, bungy jump, Especially SKIING, no skiing period. Your too important to Sallstrom

 

[Lasse]

The other is @Lass but how many years can he continue?

Lasse, you can't skydive, bungy jump, Especially SKIING, no skiing period. Your too important to Sallstrom

And I have to stay away from roasted peanuts

No - I´m not so important - I have time to learn them how to operate the control/managing system. They already manage to do what they want if I´m away. We have not decided which way we should go but I doubt that it will be an industrial normal system or a system for baths. Beside cost - it has another disadvantage - very high learning threshold and you need specialist if you want to reprogram them. But @Stigigemla have one very important remark - double systems. It will probably be one computer/system (5 system) and one computer that just monitor temp, pH and levels in every system. We need systems that we in an easy way can extend and have more than 1 safe level. We need system that shout down our large pumps if there is leaks and we losing water. I know that you can do all of this in industrial systems but someone have to programme this and I prefer to use system and functions that I know works as it should. (I.E. I have tested it by my self) IMO GHL is as close to an industrial system as you can come today (in our hobby). Thing goes wrong even in the best systems. I have learned one thing - that is to use the GCC as much as possible for adjustments and use MyGHL and the app in order to monitor - not to adjust. Sometimes I have to adjust with the app and with the new app I have not have any problems.

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

And I have to stay away from roasted peanuts

No - I´m not so important - I have time to learn them how to operate the control/managing system. They already manage to do what they want if I´m away. We have not decided which way we should go but I doubt that it will be an industrial normal system or a system for baths. Beside cost - it has another disadvantage - very high learning threshold and you need specialist if you want to reprogram them. But @Stigigemla have one very important remark - double systems. It will probably be one computer/system (5 system) and one computer that just monitor temp, pH and levels in every system. We need systems that we in an easy way can extend and have more than 1 safe level. We need system that shout down our large pumps if there is leaks and we losing water. I know that you can do all of this in industrial systems but someone have to programme this and I prefer to use system and functions that I know works as it should. (I.E. I have tested it by my self) IMO GHL is as close to an industrial system as you can come today (in our hobby). Thing goes wrong even in the best systems. I have learned one thing - that is to use the GCC as much as possible for adjustments and use MyGHL and the app in order to monitor - not to adjust. Sometimes I have to adjust with the app and with the new app I have not have any problems.

Sincerely Lasse

O yea peanuts too.

Anyway your appreciated, more than you know. Your the man!!!! You can do it!!!!

 

[Lasse]

O yea peanuts too.

Anyway your appreciated, more than you know. Your the man!!!! You can do it!!!!

Thanks

Sincerely Lasse

 

[Sallstrom]

Today my plan was to move the wooden model of the new reef tank, find some hard styrofoam in the attic and begin making my idea of forms/rock work. But because of a misbehaving calcium reactor, a long meeting and two broken skimmer pumps, the only thing I did with this model was taking this photo just before I went home.

The blue/gray thing is the model of the tank.

Good news today was the arrival of lots of small Orphek led bars. They will be used in the temporary shallow tanks and algae refugiums. Finally I found a LED fixture without a control program! Just an on/off button. Great stuff ;Shamefullyembarrased We got 28 of them. Hope the can grow something

I was impressed by the notes on the boxes. Very clear

 

[Brew12]

Today my plan was to move the wooden model of the new reef tank, find some hard styrofoam in the attic and begin making my idea of forms/rock work. But because of a misbehaving calcium reactor, a long meeting and two broken skimmer pumps, the only thing I did with this model was taking this photo just before I went home.
View attachment 850043
The blue/gray thing is the model of the tank.

Good news today was the arrival of lots of small Orphek led bars. They will be used in the temporary shallow tanks and algae refugiums. Finally I found a LED fixture without a control program! Just an on/off button. Great stuff ;Shamefullyembarrased We got 28 of them. Hope the can grow something

I was impressed by the notes on the boxes. Very clear
View attachment 850063

I think you need to make a priority of cleaning your work area!

I had no idea you were such a celebrity in Sweden! Just the country and your name, and packages make it to the right spot, no address required!