Swedish fish - behind the scenes rebuilding a public aquarium

[Dr. Dendrostein]

You know, if you can make a wooden tank, coat with proper epoxy paint one or two glass panel(s). $10,000 dollar tank for le$$.
For testing only

OR used one of the large tanks you have

 

[ZaneTer]

I agree on that it would be easy to hide pipes and outlets amongst the rocks and corals. But then it comes to the pumps. There must be some big pumps to get the water moving.. The pipes from the returpumps/sump will go into the tank. That will be up to 400m3/h I hope.

I tried to get laminar flow in a 700L propagation tank a couple of years ago. First I tried and wasn't happy with the result, then I calculated how much water I needed to move from one end to the other to get 10cm/second flow. I don't remember the numbers now, but I gave up after getting those numbers ;Wideyed Maybe someone could do a formula to calculate laminar flow?

I must sound really old and boring now, just shoting down all ideas that coming on flow. Sorry for that!
It might be that we bought a Ocean Motion 6 years ago, with 8 outlets. I glued all those pipes. And the results where not great. The Ocean Motion worked, just that the pump was to small to get any speed on the water/pipes where to wide and somewhere it sucked in air..
After that we bought the largest Tunze Masterstream. It moves about 150000L/h and cost about the same as the poolpump, pipes and the ocean motion

I got one idea from a friend. It's to put in a couple of pipes from close to the bottom up the close to the overflow. And to use them as airlifts if the water doesn't mix as well as we want and to get detritus up from the bottom layer. But it's still just an idea.

I will do a quick sketch, I think it'll be easier to understand the proportions then
Edit - The sketch comes tomorrow. Need my work computer..

Laminar flow calculation is cross sectional area (width x height) x flow.

Example. 180 gallon 6x2x2 @10cm per second

0.6n x 0.6m x 0.1 x 3600= 129.6m3 per hour flow rate.

@Sallstrom

What control system are you planning on using? Are you considering one? I would like to help with the project and automation systems are my profession including pharmaceutical, water production and manufacturing etc.

 

[Brew12]

Laminar flow calculation is cross sectional area (width x height) x flow.

Example. 180 gallon 6x2x2 @10cm per second

0.6n x 0.6m x 0.1 x 3600= 129.6m3 per hour flow rate.

@Sallstrom

What control system are you planning on using? Are you considering one? I would like to help with the project and automation systems are my profession including pharmaceutical, water production and manufacturing etc.

The challenge is calculating what rate of laminar flow from a small pipe will create the desired velocity in the non laminar and much larger tank. It also must be determined what head loses the coral and rock structure create in the system to calculate required power. When taking eddy currents and the Bernoulli effect into consideration, it becomes mathematically overwhelming.

 

[ZaneTer]

The challenge is calculating what rate of laminar flow from a small pipe will create the desired velocity in the non laminar and much larger tank. It also must be determined what head loses the coral and rock structure create in the system to calculate required power. When taking eddy currents and the Bernoulli effect into consideration, it becomes mathematically overwhelming.

Nooo Brew
It becomes challenging in just the right amount.

By the way I like your idea for a closed loop with multiple regulating outlet valves. A decent PLC hooked up to a VSD and the valves can allow for an incredibly varied and controlled flow pattern. You know what I mean.

If they are interested I have a Siemens PLC to offer and I will do the programming free. I may even be able to find a second PLC for redundancy.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I see motorized ball valves, keep pumps continuously on, every time pump on and off, wear to pump and relays that activate pumps.

 

[ZaneTer]

I see motorized ball valves, keep pumps continuously on, every time pump on and off, wear to pump and relays that activate pumps.

Yes and with adding a variable speed drive you can manipulate the speed of the pumps, hence flow, dependant on flow curves for the pumps themselves. You can also control the ramps and when coupled to a flow meter and PID loop the results should be extremely pleasing.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

I'm so used to ac/dc pumps, today there's dc driven type. But, the cost of say 50hp dc pump, with all the bells and whisles, I don't think I want to know.

And to top it off, if product is commercial grade, which it will be. "If I have to ask, how much it cost, I probably can't afford it ."

 

[Brew12]

Nooo Brew
It becomes challenging in just the right amount.

You enjoy a bigger challenge than I do!

If they are interested I have a Siemens PLC to offer and I will do the programming free.

Since this is Sweden, shouldn't it be an ABB PLC?

 

[ZaneTer]

You enjoy a bigger challenge than I do!


Since this is Sweden, shouldn't it be an ABB PLC?

You make an excellent point but as I would not call myself an ABB expert I will not offer skills on that platform

Brew, be honest, we live for challenges. Life would be pretty horrendous if we didn’t have any.

 

[Brew12]

You make an excellent point but as I would not call myself an ABB expert I will not offer skills on that platform

Brew, be honest, we live for challenges. Life would be pretty horrendous if we didn’t have any.

Very true. The greatest satisfactions we get in life are often because of the largest challenges we need to overcome.

I don't work with PLC's often anymore, but I've had to work with ABB, Siemens, and Rockwell. Sshhhhh…. .Siemens TDC is my favorite followed by S7.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

You make an excellent point but as I would not call myself an ABB expert I will not offer skills on that platform

Brew, be honest, we live for challenges. Life would be pretty horrendous if we didn’t have any.

Life would be boring

 

[ZaneTer]

I started on Rockwell then moved over to Siemens. I ended up working for them for a while on their projects team in the U.K.
I found it’s a platform that I really enjoy and fits the way my mind works. I hooked up an old S7-315 to a laptop running TIA Portal, as an HMI, so that I could remotely monitor and control my tank while I am on a project in China. It’s working quite well so far.

 

[Sallstrom]

Laminar flow calculation is cross sectional area (width x height) x flow.

Example. 180 gallon 6x2x2 @10cm per second

0.6n x 0.6m x 0.1 x 3600= 129.6m3 per hour flow rate.

@Sallstrom


What control system are you planning on using? Are you considering one? I would like to help with the project and automation systems are my profession including pharmaceutical, water production and manufacturing etc.

Thanks!

We have a plan but haven't decided yet. A commercial control system would probably cost 1/4 of the Aquarium builing budget, so we need to figure out a way around that.
And we also need to follow the law of public procurement so I really can't say which brand it'll be

We are using GHL profilux now and have been for eight years, so one plan is to get heat exchangers etc that is possible to connect to our excisting system.

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

Thanks!

We have a plan but haven't decided yet. A commercial control system would probably cost 1/4 of the Aquarium builing budget, so we need to figure out a way around that.
And we also need to follow the law of public procurement so I really can't say which brand it'll be

We are using GHL profilux now and have been for eight years, so one plan is to get heat exchangers etc that is possible to connect to our excisting system.

I'm curious on heat exchangers, you mention, any picture examples? Thanks

 

[ZaneTer]

Thanks!

We have a plan but haven't decided yet. A commercial control system would probably cost 1/4 of the Aquarium builing budget, so we need to figure out a way around that.
And we also need to follow the law of public procurement so I really can't say which brand it'll be

We are using GHL profilux now and have been for eight years, so one plan is to get heat exchangers etc that is possible to connect to our excisting system.

You are quite welcome. The cost is generally quite misunderstood. I am offering a free industrial grade controller and I will happily do the programming for free. I use something almost identical on my own reef, bear in mind I am not at home for 3 months at a time.

I will give you some food for thought in a moment regarding costing. I hate GHL after some equipment I had of theirs failed catastrophicly.

 

[ZaneTer]

@Monkeytank
@xoomercom

Price:
Ok so lets begin pricing a for 32 dosing head system expansion:
32 Digital Output card: $179 (edit add ing model number: 6ES7322-1BL00-0AA0)
32 Interposing Relays 24vDC: ~$128
32 Amazon chinese dosing heads 100ml/min: ~ $256
Throw in around another $30 for cable to wire it all up
Total: $593

GHL:
8 x 4 head slave dosing units 4 x $409.90
Total: $1639.60

Apex:
16 x 2 head DOS: 16 x $299.99
Total: $4799.84 - What an astronomical con!!!

Control:
So here is why I use my own controller:
This is what I do for a living. I love my job and I have a passion for automation. Currently GHL claim to be king of dosing with a 0.1ml dosing accuracy. I don't believe them for a second having owned and thrown away their equipment. The dosing does drift and is especially noticeable when having multiple clear containers next to each other that are being drawn off. Siemens CPUs are very fast controllers and for most systems run between 3 and 20 milliseconds to process all of the code. It is designed for applications in multiple industries ranging from manufacturing to pharmaceuticals to nuclear. For a something as small as a reef tank you will be operating at 1ms or less.

Lets take another look at that cheap dosing head. It runs at 100ml/min. That equates to 100ml/60000ms or 0.00167ml/ms. Lets say that I have lag in the relay that adds on another 10ms plus another 5ms for signal processing. 10ms+5ms+1ms comes to a total of 16ms for accurate control deviation. You now have a maximum dose deviation of 0.027ml. We are now sitting at 4 times the accuracy of the leader with some pretty cheap components. The slower the dosing head you buy the more accurate you will be. I just use 100ml/min heads because it fulfills most of my uses. I could swap one out for 500mlm/min head for water changes and it will only cost me another $20.

Pros and cons:
My system:
Pros: Complete customization. I can change anything about the system and integrate any of the heads into control loops or any amount of logic I feel like. The price is way better than anything any of the leaders offer. Accuracy is also far in the lead. If a component fails it is very cheap and easy to carry out the repair at home.
Cons: Requires a good knowledge of automation hardware and software.

GHL:
Pros: Plug and play. Somewhat accurate.
Cons: Dosing does drift. Cost is quite prohibitive. Has been known to lock up and dump chemicals (my own personal experience)

APEX
Pros: Plug and play. Somewhat accurate.
Cons: Cost is extortionate, really, what were they smoking when they decided to price this? Enough complaints surrounding reliability in the forums to warrant caution.

Hope this helps.
Zane

 

[ZaneTer]

The quote I gave has one mistake in it. The price of the GHL should have been double @ 8 x $409.90 = $3279.20

 

[Dr. Dendrostein]

The 32 Amazon chinese dosing heads 100ml/min: ~ $256

Would scare me. Any thing better than the Chinese brand you recommend.

Reason is I've used the hell out of Chinese dosing pumps and motors have failed,hose leaks within weeks.

What's a better up grade to those dosing pumps?

 

[ZaneTer]

The 32 Amazon chinese dosing heads 100ml/min: ~ $256

Would scare me. Any thing better than the Chinese brand you recommend.

Reason is I've used the hell out of Chinese dosing pumps and motors have failed,hose leaks within weeks.

What's a better up grade to those dosing pumps?

You make a very valid point BUT I have had a GHL doser fail on me dumping a load of chemicals into my tank. The Chinese heads at worst will fail off meaning no more dosing. It’s a much safer way to operate. I have no idea how much GHL charge for a replacement stepper motor but I shudder at the thought.

 

[Sallstrom]

@Jomama
We've only given the numbers we want to the company drawing the HVAC. And what signals we want to control the temperature etc. And objected when the draw a large ventilation pipe over the reef tank
So I don't know yet.