Radium metal halide bulbs will not be produced anymore!

[Yanir34]

What an amazing tank! It's mesmerizing to watch your pristine piece of ocean. Yes your tank is the perfect example of different technologies capable of sucessfully grow corals. How did you mount your kessil on t5 fixture? I also have kessil (with metal halide) that I want to attach to the rail. Is it diy?

Thanks !
yes it's DIY kit for the kessils

 

[Borat]

This is an exciting discussion - i learnt that my LED lights will only last for 3-5 years (NOT) !

 

[oreo54]

For example, if you wanted to take your time machine back to see Steve Tyree 20 years ago and get a bunch of his limited editions, you would likely fail with enough of them and have to take a second trip back once you added some other light types.

I'd question if that would hold today.
20 years ago leds well lets face it..sucked.. and yes some of the sales pitches were pretty deceiving.
Just an overall.. because.

From physics to fixtures to food: current and potential LED efficacy - Horticulture Research

www.nature.com

Blue LEDs are now 93% efficient, phosphor-converted “whites” are 76% efficient, and reds are 81% efficient when run at the near-optimal conditions of 100 mA mm−2 and a junction temperature of 25 °C.

And this chart. The MH branch looks pretty optimistic but general trends hold.
It is in lumens.

Data above from Osram
probably a good start doomed to be litigated to death and probably set leds back 5 years..
https://reefs.com/magazine/product-review-a-new-horizon-in-lighting-pfo-s-solaris-led-system/
Then again some of the mh reflectors were pretty dodgy..

I'm not going for 100% historical accuracy here.. just a broad brush as I see it.

Typical v/b/g/amber/red "20000k" mh.

 

[t5Nitro]

Mmmmm, 20K halide. The best.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I'd question if that would hold today.
20 years ago leds well lets face it..sucked.. and yes some of the sales pitches were pretty deceiving.
Just an overall.. because.

From physics to fixtures to food: current and potential LED efficacy - Horticulture Research

www.nature.com

And this chart. The MH branch looks pretty optimistic but general trends hold.

Data above from Osram
probably a good start doomed to be litigated to death and probably set leds back 5 years..
https://reefs.com/magazine/product-review-a-new-horizon-in-lighting-pfo-s-solaris-led-system/
Then again some of the mh reflectors were pretty dodgy..

I'm not going for 100% historical accuracy here.. just a broad brush as I see it.

Typical v/b/g/amber/red "20000k" mh.

This data has been the root of so many nasty "You are an LED hater and denier" arguments... LOL.

On the contrary, I just want people to not conflate magic and physics into some kind of crazy zealotry. I used to post the DOE luminous efficacy chart (updated yearly) during each of those arguments and people would STILL argue their magic points of view.

 

[A. grandis]

It's not a mystery that when this happens, it's a.grandis at the root of it all. Everyone mostly goes with the notion that it's all personal preference and there's pros and cons to all tech, but they all grow coral, but a.grandis can't help himself and needs to attack that perspective (with zero evidence besides selectively picked anecdotes).

He's basically the flat earther who wants to convert everyone because NASA is pushing narratives to control us all, and we're sheep to believe that and we can't think for ourselves, and believe real eyes as data over science and theories of why the earth is actually round - like look at this ball i poured water on and spin, why is the water not staying! This is the basis for all his arguments lol.



This is why it's plug and play with MH, because even though it's 1000 PAR (exaggeration), the blue spectrum is what the corals are most sensitive to and use, so the more PAR in the blue spectrum, the more likely it will bleach. If you filter out the higher spectrum on a MH to make it only the blue spectrum as the output and push PAR up to 500+, corals will bleach just as fast. It has zero to due with lenses as the lense determines spread and penetration (not the ignorant notion of "quality of light", the photons are exactly the same when comparing the exact same wavelengths, no matter the tech).

LEDs focus their power on the usable spectrum and dominate that spectrum with an LED makeup of it, and simply supplement it with the whites., greens, reds, etc. This has nothing to do with the tech and everything to do with the spectrum (which each tech is built around differently).

One of the reasons I choose to step on stupid claims saying that LEDs are better than halides and T5s is simply because of what the LED manufacturers and stores did to this hobby with their brainwashing. It seems that people ignore what I say, so brainwashed they are. LOL! Aside of respecting friends and even some of the LED manufacturers, there is still a very strong discrimination against whoever decides to even try metal halides today. It's very clear in this forum! If anyone say their corals aren't doing well and they saw a halide tank and want to try, 10.000 LED users will automatically come on that guy to convince him to try another LED. Why? LOL!
There is problem in this industry and it needs to stop!
The differences in results between the technologies exist and each person has the right to choose! How many private messages I get from LED users trying to justify their changes to halides and further talking to them I discover that their problem aren't actually lighting... I tell them the truth! Tell them to address other problems and keep their light. I mean... you need to run the tank as you like! Unless they rally want to change.
I get upset with the lies they preach to sell LEDs and with the removal of halides from the market! Very upset! That is what drives me crazy! The lack of professionalism and respect for the hobbyists and trying to manipulate us all with lies.
The facts of lighting of each technology defines the results and the differences running them. All that crap about heat, electricity costs, bulky fixtures, changing the bulbs, etc... they will not matter if you want the results from halides! Or, will... then anyone decides what they want.
Who in the right mind will lie to yourself saying the LEDs will actually give the very best to their corals in any situation? Again, "best" is subjective. How many times do I have to say that? It all comes down to what you want. I always say that.
It is absolutely true to say that corals will develop MORE natural pigmentation production under halides. FASTER growth under halides. BETTER spread and HOMOGENOUS colony structure. To me, those 3 qualities define a great percentage of how HEALTHY they actually are.
What jda posted before applies... and not every reefer wants to get to a higher result. There are many levels of reefers. Point is, if we don't allow this new generation to use halides and see the results for themselves, they will never now better!

No, the Earth is no flat!

 

[BeanAnimal]

It seems that people ignore what I say, so brainwashed they are.

Because you are the authority and don't appear "brainwashed" to the rest of us?

There is still a very strong discrimination against whoever decides to even try metal halides today.

Huh?

The differences in results between the technologies exist and each person has the right to choose!

Of course, only after YOU point out that Metal Halide is KING and they are making a mistake.

I tell them the truth!

No you tell them YOUR truth. I think we already did this didn't we? Ahhh yes, we reached the end and our now on another go-round.

I get upset with the lies they preach to sell LEDs and with the removal of halides from the market!

Halides are not being removed form the market due to lies. They are being "removed" because society as a whole has moved on from incandescent lamps to LEDs, which are a vast improvement in efficiency and life expectancy and are suitable for most peoples uses. Notice "better" is not a reason, as that is up to each individuals interpretation.

Reality: LED costs have plummeted and supplies have sky rocketed. Halides and other discharge lamps are more collateral damage of classical supply and demand than they are anything else. Why put a 200 400W halides over a parking lot when you can replace them with 200 30W LEDs? Do you have ANY CLUE what highbay and outdoor commercial lighting costs to run? Do the math, it is sobering. What it costs to light a parking lot NIGHTLY with arc lamps is insane. T5s helped but had to be CONSTANTLY changed and done so at height. They are a logistical nightmare. LEDs solve these problems. There is just little demand for arc lamps anymore. It is not a conspiracy.

 

[Sisterlimonpot]

There is problem in this industry and it needs to stop!

I agree, this hobby is dictated by marketing and shills. But that's the broad picture, and if you're wanting to change that, I wouldn't use MH as the platform.

Regardless of what you think, market share has moved to LEDs. That ship has sailed a long time ago and it seems to me that you (and other like minded folks) are desperately trying to pull that ship back into the port using only kite string.

I follow this thread because it's nice to know that people are still able to source bulds to sustain their lighting choice.

I don't think that we can debate one approach is better. It boils down to preference and your position is the minority. And it doesn't make your position wrong for you.

Using your time machine analogy, I wonder what the alternate reality where LEDs failed to dominate market share and MH still were the fixture of choice would look like in terms of popular corals. Would we have all these multi-colored acros? Would euphyllia be so popular? Would the hobby be as popular? It's hard to say, and even harder to fathom in this reality.

It's a fair assessment that 10 people would promote LEDs to your 1 endorsement of MH, that alone should be indication enough that the hobby (as a whole) has moved on.

I'm not discouraging you to keep up "the good fight" but somewhere inside of you has to know that it's futile.

 

[Celestion]

For sure leds err way better for a Walmart parking lot , even though wally could care less what electricity cost , lol

 

[Madison Reef]

BALU400-CWA/V5 (7276) Plusrite 400W High Pressure Sodium Ballast Kit - S51 5-tap

The BALU400-CWA/V5 (7276) from Plusrite is a 400W 5 tap HPS ballast for ANSI S51 with CWA circuit.

ballastshop.com

HPS Lighting - Reef Central Online Community

HPS Lighting Appalachian Reef Society

www.reefcentral.com

HPS ballasts appear to be the best way to run the German MH bulbs to spec for anyone interested.

I'm back in the hobby after a 15 year layoff. My last setup I was using a 250w Radium pushed by an S50 ballast, supplemented by T5 Blue+ and VHO Actinics. I loved that setup. When researching the best way to run Radiums, this is what Paul Erik told me on the old RC:

A North American 250-watt HPS (ANSI S50) is similar to a metal halide HQI (ANSI M80) Ballast. Both ballasts limit lamp current to the same level (3.0 amps). The main difference is the starting voltage and starting amperage. The difference is generally close enough to not cause any major problems. The only problem could be reliable lamp starting. After start up both ANSI S50 and ANSI M80 ballasts will operate a lamp similarly. Higher voltage lamp starters are available but are not common. In the commercial industry we have installed ANSI M80 spec lamps in HPS fixtures but we replaced the lamp starter/ignitor with a high voltage (4000-5000V) superimposed ignitor. The lamps did light with standard HPS ignitor but when lamps age they require a higher starting voltage to light reliably. In the commercial lighting field the lamps will be used for a longer time period than in the aquarium lighting field so this might not be a problem.

Those S50 ballasts can still be had for well under $100. I didn't see any degradation in the bulbs for well over a year as these ballasts run pretty much to spec. Underdriving with an electronic ballast might gives nice blues, but it also shortens bulb life.

I never knew about this option. Thank you so much for sharing! Maybe I should also try out radium with "right ballast"
See? I learned something new today thanks to @djf91 and @gastone. Let's keep this positivity going!

Consider the logic....

A tiny niche demand with one or two players already filling it and no realistic chances of a true "comeback" given the competing technology, relevant laws, cost of manufacture, societal dogma, etc. Why would any company choose to jump in and further divide a non-existent growth sector to please a fraction of a fraction of a percent of possible customers? It is illogical, even if it is na nice sentiment.

The best you can likely hope for is one or two hold out manufacturers producing "contract" products for various brands/labels to fill niches like this. They may be different phosphor runs or may just be different labels on the same products.

As it were, of the DOZENS of choices we appeared to have in the past very few were actually unique and many were just rebadged from a handful of OEMs. To that end, some "brands" of halides changed what was actually in the box regularly as they were at the mercy of what they could source from various wholesale lamp distributors and were NOT big enough to order their own productions runs. So your "xyz brand 14K" could have been ANYTHING in the 12K-20K region form any number of manufacturers. The nobility cast upon this industry by some here is laughable.

My main argument is that we do not need to engage in meaningless conversation unless you'd like to beat the dead horse.
I completely agree with you that there is "no realistic chances of a true 'comback,'" but at the same time there are population of reefers who still want to use metal halide despite of its drawbacks. And I do not know if this applies to anyone else but for me, when I like something really a lot, I'd like to share with others just like @A. grandis. Please also consider my passion (and love) for metal halide and be respectful so that we can engange in meaningful conversation. Attacking ad mocking each other is not considered meaningful conversation.

As a person who wants metal halide option available to hobbyists, I find it unfortunate that new hobbyists no longer see much metal halide lit tanks at LFS/other hobbyists'. Not to mention LFS do not carry them much.

Some of the very old bulbs I had showed the arc with marks like salt spray and such and when I started for the first time they reacted a bit differently at first, then fired without poblems after that. That is probably the effect of gravity with the components in the arc while in storage for so long. So, in my experience, they will be fine. I guess it would also depend how the bulb was in storage, like temperature, position, etc...

Thank you for your wisdom! I was little worried that my newly acquired bulb may not be the same as it must have sat in the store for a looooooong time. Now I am considering stocking them up. hehe reports incoming!

It's not a mystery that when this happens, it's a.grandis at the root of it all. Everyone mostly goes with the notion that it's all personal preference and there's pros and cons to all tech, but they all grow coral, but a.grandis can't help himself and needs to attack that perspective (with zero evidence besides selectively picked anecdotes).

He's basically the flat earther who wants to convert everyone because NASA is pushing narratives to control us all, and we're sheep to believe that and we can't think for ourselves, and believe real eyes as data over science and theories of why the earth is actually round - like look at this ball i poured water on and spin, why is the water not staying! This is the basis for all his arguments lol.

Yes I agree that @A. grandis has a particular way of communicating with others, and it appears that he cannot help himself. But at the same time @A. grandis helps others when they ask questions regarding metal halide. And that he's the starter of this thread so I did not want to point out his name bluntly out of respect.

Although he's biased (maybe he's associated with the new bulb company?) he's a good guy who helps others. Perhaps too much passion for metal halide.

My conclusion? Why not respect his "opinion" whether true or not, it does not matter. No sarcasm is needed.

Please consider my conversation with @A. grandis, there is no debate. We can engage in a conversation with him in a nice way. Only exchange of meaningful information to help each other out, perhaps little celebration of what we can achieve with MH... that's the purpose of this forum, right? share our passion and inspire others?

I just love when @jda steps in. I completely agree with his view on this matter and he does convey his opinion in a non aggressive way without any sarcasm.

Thank you for reading and sorry for the language, I still struggle with English.

 

[AquaLogic]

Is there any community, anywhere, discussing literally anything, that doesn't devolve into tribalism and conspiracy theories? It's exhausting, and more than a little sad.

 

[Madison Reef]

Is there any community, anywhere, discussing literally anything, that doesn't devolve into tribalism and conspiracy theories? It's exhausting, and more than a little sad.

Gosh my thought exactly. For the Iwasaki 6500k report, I am going to start my own thread and kick out everyone who's brining a hot potato into my thread.

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

In my experience when growing acropora:

-Radium MHs provided the richest and deepest/saturated coloration
-All T5s (i.e., ATI sunpower) provided me the fastest growth
-Leds gave me the best pop

It will be a very sad day when Radiums are finally unattainable as I will no longer be able to experience what originally made this hobby magical to me. Even more frightening…I will somehow have to justify the cost to my wife of a few ATI Stratons in attempt to appease my internal need to try and replicate what I experience when growing acropora under Radiums. And don’t get me started on my inability to stop touching the app and tweaking spectrum…all because of that darn Radium bulb. It has ruined me and altered my expectations. I suppose it may be better than when I was buying 20+ different T5s in attempt to chase the Radium experience with my all T5 setups.

All my opinions.

 

[BeanAnimal]

For sure leds err way better for a Walmart parking lot , even though wally could care less what electricity cost , lol

Ohh they care. They high bays and parking lot illumination cost them a fortune to operate. The Walmarts of the world are who adopted first, as they saw the tremendous advantages. We are at their (large industry) mercy for things like this, so go they, so goes manufacturing and so goes our choices.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Please also consider my passion (and love) for metal halide and be respectful so that we can engange in meaningful conversation. Attacking ad mocking each other is not considered meaningful conversation.

Huh? I did not attack you or mock you in any way, shape or form. In fact, given the subject matter, this thread has stayed very respectful.

 

[Madison Reef]

Huh? I did not attack you or mock you in any way, shape or form. In fact, given the subject matter, this thread has stayed very respectful.

No I was not talking about you attacking me or mocking me in any way, shape or form. I was talking about you and @A. grandis.

 

[BeanAnimal]

In my experience when growing acropora:

-Radium MHs provided the richest and deepest/saturated coloration
-All T5s (i.e., ATI sunpower) provided me the fastest growth
-Leds gave me the best pop

It will be a very sad day when Radiums are finally unattainable as I will no longer be able to experience what originally made this hobby magical to me. Even more frightening…I will somehow have to justify the cost to my wife of a few ATI Stratons in attempt to appease my internal need to try and replicate what I experience when growing acropora under Radiums. And don’t get me started on my inability to stop touching the app and tweaking spectrum…all because of that darn Radium bulb. It has ruined me and altered my expectations. I suppose it may be better than when I was buying 20+ different T5s in attempt to chase the Radium experience with my all T5 setups.

All my opinions.

The brain is a powerful thing. When you no longer have a frame of reference for direct visual comparison, the brain both forgets and fills in the blanks.

Watch a baseball game (or movie) on a 40 year old TV. At first the shock of how “bad” it is may be hard to not see. Twenty minutes in, your just watching a tv, the brain fills in the blanks.

You think your cell phone calls sound good. If you could compare your current cell phone voice quality in one ear with a coast to coast call 40 years ago using Sprint’s analog copper network and a Bell 500 handset in the other, your mind would explode. You would never use a cell phone again if you had the choice. It is THAT bad.

The point is, that your mind adapts to whatever is at hand.

 

[t5Nitro]

In my experience when growing acropora:

-Radium MHs provided the richest and deepest/saturated coloration
-All T5s (i.e., ATI sunpower) provided me the fastest growth
-Leds gave me the best pop

It will be a very sad day when Radiums are finally unattainable as I will no longer be able to experience what originally made this hobby magical to me. Even more frightening…I will somehow have to justify the cost to my wife of a few ATI Stratons in attempt to appease my internal need to try and replicate what I experience when growing acropora under Radiums. And don’t get me started on my inability to stop touching the app and tweaking spectrum…all because of that darn Radium bulb. It has ruined me and altered my expectations. I suppose it may be better than when I was buying 20+ different T5s in attempt to chase the Radium experience with my all T5 setups.

All my opinions.

I'm excited to put some new radium bulbs back in my fixtures this summer. I want to do it now, but it would be way premature on the hamilton bulbs. Can't wait to get the radiums back in there.

 

[BeanAnimal]

No I was not talking about you attacking me or mocking me in any way, shape or form. I was talking about you and @A. grandis.

Maybe let people fight their own battles? He dishes out as much as he takes. Even so, the conversations are in good spirit. Nobody is angry here.

 

[Madison Reef]

Maybe let people fight their own battles?

That's fine with me but I do not think that fits into the purpose of the thread... I have no say in what you do. Just begging everyone to focus our attention on positive things.