Radium metal halide bulbs will not be produced anymore!

[BeanAnimal]

Alright...

I'll get 4 classic examples:

SOLARIS
Just to know later that the higher the PAR, the worse would be for the corals under LED lenses.

No... and this is a scam (fraud?) how?

Each and every "scam" you list is run of the mill marketing, not fraud.

But every Radion user ignored the facts, after spending so much money on those fixtures! That's what they call confirmation bias.

Of course they did, but you ignore facts too and oft repeat bad information. Shall we label you a scam or a fraud or your sources scams or frauds?

There are other types of scams, like for example the recommendation for LED coverage by each manufacturer has been proved to be insufficient.

Proven by who and to what standard? Posting your own rhetoric over and over to combat what you feel is "Led manufacturer" rhetoric is the same thing... and the reason we are having this ironic "conversation" you are the same (or worse) than what you are railing against my friend.

Alright, now we go for that classic list of good guys saying good things about the KING of lights and some very nice videos for the kids watch

Your list of videos is getting exhaustingly long. They are examples of opinion, just like similar videos for LEDs, etc. Oddly, many of these people are not saying what you advertise them as saying, to the end that there is a thread here somewhere with you ranting about Mike Paletta's "misinformation" and being brainwashed or in bed with the LED cabal.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Metal Halide Ballasts, which one is which? Answers here: - Reef Central Online Community Archives

Metal Halide Ballasts, which one is which? Answers here: Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment

archive.reefcentral.com

Be careful - you will expose our resident zealot to the fact that back in the day, his noble MH vendors used deceptive marketing to compete against each other as well as the the newcomers (T5s and PC) that threatened their market share.

 

[BeanAnimal]

my tank any many other tanks that powerd with MH/T5's are living proof to your claims my friend.

Your tank looks amazing. Nice work!

I think you misunderstand his claims
His claim/logic is that your tank would be "better" with metal halide, but is using inferior T5s and LEDs.

 

[BeanAnimal]

we rather need to have a debate regarding how we should reach out to phoenix and ushio to convince them to follow radium.

Consider the logic....

A tiny niche demand with one or two players already filling it and no realistic chances of a true "comeback" given the competing technology, relevant laws, cost of manufacture, societal dogma, etc. Why would any company choose to jump in and further divide a non-existent growth sector to please a fraction of a fraction of a percent of possible customers? It is illogical, even if it is na nice sentiment.

The best you can likely hope for is one or two hold out manufacturers producing "contract" products for various brands/labels to fill niches like this. They may be different phosphor runs or may just be different labels on the same products.

As it were, of the DOZENS of choices we appeared to have in the past very few were actually unique and many were just rebadged from a handful of OEMs. To that end, some "brands" of halides changed what was actually in the box regularly as they were at the mercy of what they could source from various wholesale lamp distributors and were NOT big enough to order their own productions runs. So your "xyz brand 14K" could have been ANYTHING in the 12K-20K region form any number of manufacturers. The nobility cast upon this industry by some here is laughable.

 

[bobnicaragua]

Lighting on this forum is like politics. Nobody changes their mind, but everyone gets all fired up.

I have something to offer in this “debate” and I wonder if others have had similar experiences.

I have a 6 foot SPS tank that’s mostly acros and a closet full of T5, LED, and halide gear. I like to switch up the lighting and watch how the corals respond.

With halides in the mix, colors get deeper, and tissue appears thicker and healthier.

When I pull the halides down and only run T5 and LED, there is always a color shift. I keep the par at the sanded at 300, regardless of which light combination I’m running.

T5 and LED probably develop the best coloration under blues, but the colors are less rich and deep without halides. The corals look more robust with halides in the mix, and slow growers tend to do better.

I switch up the lights more than I should, and the acros always respond to the change. There is a difference. What is “best” is a matter of opinion.

 

[alton]

Taste great, less filling, taste great less filling. Ford versus Chevy. Smith and Wesson versus Colt. I can’t believe after 20 years the argument still goes on which is better. Do you saves tons of money in electrical cost with LED’s, not really. Does MH grow coral so much better than LED, well I have seen tanks that do well with both. I have had tanks that used both with great results. For me the only down fall was the large pendants required for optimum results on my MH tanks. And no matter what is discussed here people adjust their LED’s to sell coral. So many times I have gone to a frag swap and everything is under blue light to get the "glow", which is not ideal and definitely not normal. Just sit back enjoy the hobby, life is too short to argue.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I switch up the lights more than I should, and the acros always respond to the change. There is a difference. What is “best” is a matter of opinion.

Interesting. Too many variables to draw any conclusions other than what you have observed, but yes "best" is certainly a matter of opinion and that is the entire point of the perpetual argument with a.grandis.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Taste great, less filling, taste great less filling. Ford versus Chevy. Smith and Wesson versus Colt. I can’t believe after 20 years the argument still goes on which is better.

I don't think many people are actually making that argument, save one or two here.

 

[jda]

Anybody who will tell you that there is not a difference probably does not have enough breath and depth of experience to be worth listening to. The important discussion should come from the nuance around the differences. Of course, this get hards with comments like "have seen both have great tanks" or "any light does well" without the nuance... which is worthless. People getting upset also does not help. I can have a world-class xenia and mushroom tank with lights that I get from Home Depot or Sams Club meant to light a garage. If you want to keep the kinds of acropora that I keep, about 90-95% of the people who do have lights very similar to mine - there are some exceptions, but the rule has a narrow range of types and models of lights. Comparing a mixed reef to what I keep would be foolish - comparing my acropora reef to a xenia/mushroom reef would be foolish but this is not too far from what the broad statements are doing.

I just want people to understand the differences so that they can choose well from the jump. Of course, they also have to know what they want... which almost never is the case.

The smart folks who understand all of the differences and can tell you why they chose what they chose are the best to listen to. They will never say stuff like "any light can grow coral."

 

[jda]

I mostly have no time for "I have used both and they all are great!" Tell me about how they were different, what you keep, what you like about both, pros, cons, etc.

For the smart hobbyists who have a wide range of experience, most all of them will tell you that nothing can match the pure performance of when they had MH but if they moved on, it was because they didn't keep the demanding corals anymore, wanted some thunderstorms, black light look, over-tank fixtures that look sleek/modern, etc. Some of the middling/unexperienced folks will say stuff like bulb changes, heat and power saving, but the more experienced hobbyists know that heat is no problem in most climates (not all) and that you really save no wattage unless you had too much of the other kind of light. Throw in the average lifespan of a LED unit cost and bulb changes are usually cheaper for those who have been around. The smart hobbyists that go to MH/T5 after using LEDs have seen what the performance gains look like and want to try them themselves - anybody EVER heard of one of these folks being disappointed in the results? Ever?

Most of the argument is from the unknowledgeable doing something like replacing 2x 400w MH and 4x T5s over a mixed reef and now using a trio of AI primes. Umm... Volkswagen Rabbit to replace a f350. They don't know that they likely could have used a trio of 70w Halides or 4x T5s from the jump and never needed all that power that they had. They don't understand that their choices were bad, not the lighting. People parrot this about electrical bills and heat and have no idea what they are talking about - since they are parrots they did not see with their own eyes how each worked so they have no real nuance to offer. I think that the bulb chances over 20 years are $XXX vs the cost of my unit is dead - most seem to know that 3-5 years on a LED fixture is pretty typical and they do not last forever.

I think that somebody mentioned ReefBums move from MH to all LEDs on this thread. If his opinion does not include the loss of some of his old-school corals as a potential negative, then his analysis will be incomplete. He is smart and experienced and I imagine that this will part of the discussion since is capable of the nuance. These kind of things matter and are important to mention to people who are trying to learn.

 

[BeanAnimal]

nothing can match the pure performance of when they had MH but if they moved on, it was because they didn't keep the demanding corals

I really like the look of halides, but I moved on for convenience, heat profile, day simulation, safety, etc. I do not believe that demanding corals require MH. I do believe that MH makes them far easier than LED and a bit easier than T5 when it comes to removing variables and getting things “just right”.

but the more experienced hobbyists know that heat is no problem in most climates (not all) and that you really save no wattage unless you had too much of the other kind of light.

Sure, but the difference in the three major techs is the difference in how the heat is managed due to where/how it is imparted to the room or system.

They don't understand that their choices were bad, not the lighting.

Exactly.

People parrot this about electrical bills and heat and have no idea what they are talking about -

Drives me insane… I gave up years ago. A watt is a watt and the luminous efficacy of any light source is readily available. Yet people (on both sides) argue from positions if absolute ignorance.

If his opinion does not include the loss of some of his old-school corals as a potential negative, then his analysis will be incomplete.

I don’t go that far, too many variables. Change from one brand of DE lamps to another, let alone Lamp/ballast topology and some things may suddenly thrive and others decline or die. Again, I think for the average person, a proven MH setup is easier to “just use” than fiddling with LED settings or trying to get an entire tank covered with the right combo of “proven” T5s. However, there are now many fixture specific “proven” LED profiles as well.

 

[t5Nitro]

There’s still a lot of hostile debate in this thread. I’ve been through all the lamp types and I’m back at halides. Fish and coral look the best, period. It’s unreal how good halides are. My next tank I would really like to incorporate solar tubes overhead. Even to exclude coral appearance from the factor, the fish just look amazing under a nice set of halides, which is really what likely brought most of us to the hobby.

Now whenever my halides are toast, I’ll take up the ATI stratons or reef breeders to take their place and be fine with it.

 

[A. grandis]

By any chance, does anyone know if unsued bulbs that were produced a long time ago go bad eventually?
Do they degrade over time even if they don't get used?
I'm talking about more than 10 years. probably more like 20 years.

Some of the very old bulbs I had showed the arc with marks like salt spray and such and when I started for the first time they reacted a bit differently at first, then fired without poblems after that. That is probably the effect of gravity with the components in the arc while in storage for so long. So, in my experience, they will be fine. I guess it would also depend how the bulb was in storage, like temperature, position, etc...

 

[A. grandis]

we rather need to have a debate regarding how we should reach out to phoenix and ushio to convince them to follow radium.

I thought they closed their facility. Maybe someone knows their contact?

 

[jda]

I do not believe that demanding corals require MH.

I have seen too many once-popular, widespread and moderate care corals (acros and some zoanthids) nearly completely disappear from the hobby to believe that type of light does not matter. They are now only really kept well by people with MH or high amounts of T5s lights - mercury. You can find a few who do OK with them under LED, but also many more who have seen the struggles with their eyes and have since added mercury based light sources that did not want to believe it at first. Again, there is the rule and the outliers and we have had enough time with the experiences and anecdotes to make some solid conclusions.

For example, if you wanted to take your time machine back to see Steve Tyree 20 years ago and get a bunch of his limited editions, you would likely fail with enough of them and have to take a second trip back once you added some other light types. Some would not care. Some do. Not everybody wants to keep these corals, but I think that this deserves mentioning to those that do.

 

[Minifoot77]

As a noob that is putting mh on my tank now im still just supplementing my leds I like this discussion

 

[oreo54]

Anybody who will tell you that there is not a difference probably does not have enough breath and depth of experience to be worth listening to. The important discussion should come from the nuance around the differences. Of course, this get hards with comments like "have seen both have great tanks" or "any light does well" without the nuance... which is worthless. People getting upset also does not help. I can have a world-class xenia and mushroom tank with lights that I get from Home Depot or Sams Club meant to light a garage. If you want to keep the kinds of acropora that I keep, about 90-95% of the people who do have lights very similar to mine - there are some exceptions, but the rule has a narrow range of types and models of lights. Comparing a mixed reef to what I keep would be foolish - comparing my acropora reef to a xenia/mushroom reef would be foolish but this is not too far from what the broad statements are doing.

I just want people to understand the differences so that they can choose well from the jump. Of course, they also have to know what they want... which almost never is the case.

The smart folks who understand all of the differences and can tell you why they chose what they chose are the best to listen to. They will never say stuff like "any light can grow coral."

Yea so basically, and just using your words so I can avoid the " what do I know" comments that the light "type" only matters to a small sub set of all the reef tanks in existence and potential existence.

I can see that... but again probably makes little difference to the majority

Secondly there is a look though most of that is a choice not a need.

There are areas that need to be examined.
Never said their weren't. None seem a deal breaker EXCEPT to that very small population.

Personally my "hypothesis" is the higher the par the more near IR is necessary.

That fits nature . Lot of red/IR and " full spectrum" at high shallow par ranges..

Mercury based or not there is only sooo much spectrum.
Going to the magic photon theory is unscientific.

Little to none at the lower no red/IR mostly blue and green par ranges.Btw these are still in the hundreds "PAR".

Meaning high par only blue with little to no red/ IR is not natural and could be counter productive to coral functions.

Now on the political side trying to convince everyone that they need mh's (not referring to you of course) seems to be more for self preservation of the "tiny subset" who have little power over any market.
The larger crowd doesn't have much more so it seems pointless.
Real market forces decide.
There is the RARE company wthat will continue a low profit margin out of "sentiment' but find that only lasts so long.
The Radium thing is more than likely caused by some larger customers asking for a run.

. Fish and coral look the best, period. It’s unreal how good halides are. My next tank I would really like to incorporate solar tubes overhead. Even to exclude coral appearance from the factor, the fish just look amazing under a nice set of halides, which is really what likely brought most of us to the hobby.

There is a lot in "color theory" to explain that.
MH's act more like RGB leds than blue/white leds.
Unfortunately few really understand that.

Colours of corals

In the thread https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/have-we-been-wrong-in-our-understanding-of-par-this-whole-time.1035018/ all from PAR to coral colourations is discussed. Among other things - coral colouration during different wavelengths was discussed. I decide to start an own thread according...

www.reef2reef.com

In my fw world one can compare the best high CRI white leds to say an array of red/green/blue/amber/cyan and the rgbac will "pop" a bit more than the very best sunlight emulation LED.
The peak and dips make a difference.

YMMV....

 

[jda]

Again, I like the theory and all, but without anybody actually putting everything together like you surmise is possible, then it isn't. It is just on paper. I guess that it is possible that everybody who has ever tried this is a moron - you know how much disdain that I have for some of these companies (some are good) so I easily could be talked into this - but nobody has even gotten lucky? I hope that somebody does figure it out. When I was a kid, jetpacks, hovercraft and hydrogen cars were coming with vigor and none made it - theory was good, but that is where it stopped.

I have probably posted this before, but even just around me there is LED pushback. Many stores have went back to T5s and have sun panels (it is sunny in Colorado). Finally got a store guy to tell me that the LEDs were causing fatigue for the employees and people who are at the store for long periods of time and with the sun panels, the T5s meet the new standards. I know that none of this has to do with reefing, but if larger innovations come in the market, then some benefit might trickle down.

As for the Radium thing, I have a theory that lines up with all of my posts but have not confirmed a bit of it. There was never any intent to not make the bulbs since the market always was there - just a shift in who was going to make them. Something impacted that shift (money and a purchase or sale is my theory) and now back to status quo. Demand never changed, just a takeover/sale/merger/whatever did not go through. Just a guess, but I will see a lot of these folks some day and I will ask.

Hey Grandis - Phoenix has a website and you can submit form-based questions. I never found any email. They also have phone numbers listed, but I do not think that Japanese speak English like Germans do so I never tried to call them, but perhaps I am a fool.

 

[buruskeee]

I feel sad about is that every MH thread gets turned into a debate, and I am really sick of it.

It's not a mystery that when this happens, it's a.grandis at the root of it all. Everyone mostly goes with the notion that it's all personal preference and there's pros and cons to all tech, but they all grow coral, but a.grandis can't help himself and needs to attack that perspective (with zero evidence besides selectively picked anecdotes).

He's basically the flat earther who wants to convert everyone because NASA is pushing narratives to control us all, and we're sheep to believe that and we can't think for ourselves, and believe real eyes as data over science and theories of why the earth is actually round - like look at this ball i poured water on and spin, why is the water not staying! This is the basis for all his arguments lol.

Personally my "hypothesis" is the higher the par the more near IR is necessary.

That fits nature . Lot of red/IR and " full spectrum" at high shallow par ranges..

Mercury based or not there is only sooo much spectrum.
Going to the magic photon theory is unscientific.

Little to none at the lower no red/IR mostly blue and green par ranges.Btw these are still in the hundreds "PAR".

Meaning high par only blue with little to no red/ IR is not natural and could be counter productive to coral functions.

This is why it's plug and play with MH, because even though it's 1000 PAR (exaggeration), the blue spectrum is what the corals are most sensitive to and use, so the more PAR in the blue spectrum, the more likely it will bleach. If you filter out the higher spectrum on a MH to make it only the blue spectrum as the output and push PAR up to 500+, corals will bleach just as fast. It has zero to due with lenses as the lense determines spread and penetration (not the ignorant notion of "quality of light", the photons are exactly the same when comparing the exact same wavelengths, no matter the tech).

LEDs focus their power on the usable spectrum and dominate that spectrum with an LED makeup of it, and simply supplement it with the whites., greens, reds, etc. This has nothing to do with the tech and everything to do with the spectrum (which each tech is built around differently).

 

[oreo54]

Again, I like the theory and all, but without anybody actually putting everything together like you surmise is possible, then it isn't. It is just on paper. I guess that it is possible that everybody who has ever tried this is a moron - you know how much disdain that I have for some of these companies (some are good) so I easily could be talked into this - but nobody has even gotten lucky? I hope that somebody does figure it out. When I was a kid, jetpacks, hovercraft and hydrogen cars were coming with vigor and none made it - theory was good, but that is where it stopped.

I have probably posted this before, but even just around me there is LED pushback. Many stores have went back to T5s and have sun panels (it is sunny in Colorado). Finally got a store guy to tell me that the LEDs were causing fatigue for the employees and people who are at the store for long periods of time and with the sun panels, the T5s meet the new standards. I know that none of this has to do with reefing, but if larger innovations come in the market, then some benefit might trickle down.

As for the Radium thing, I have a theory that lines up with all of my posts but have not confirmed a bit of it. There was never any intent to not make the bulbs since the market always was there - just a shift in who was going to make them. Something impacted that shift (money and a purchase or sale is my theory) and now back to status quo. Demand never changed, just a takeover/sale/merger/whatever did not go through. Just a guess, but I will see a lot of these folks some day and I will ask.

Hey Grandis - Phoenix has a website and you can submit form-based questions. I never found any email. They also have phone numbers listed, but I do not think that Japanese speak English like Germans do so I never tried to call them, but perhaps I am a fool.

No not morons just didn't look at it in a certain way.
Besides even hort. wasn't doing the " ir thing" until Bugbee really ( afaict)
and tobe useful PS2 needs to be saturated
Second who ever considered peridinin photons absorption.

And really how many even considered using RGB over whites

Or got sucked into the only good white was a 12000k or better white..

Had an old prof in college who thought proteins were the key to heredity not nucleic acid. Oddly seems to have some validity. Point is he wasn't " dumb", just looked at it differently.