Radium metal halide bulbs will not be produced anymore!

[Z Burn's Reefing]

Hanging your hat on one amateur " study"?
There was the " coral labs" study that is ignored..

Soo do you have the measurements and standard deviations?

Not talking about me. Just the gp and what brs said..

Btw historically best has been pretty pro mh and t5.
They dumped both when neither were selling well and just taking up $$$$ space.

That IS how capitalism work.
Sold lots of bulbs though.

I don’t recall “hanging” my hat on one “amateur” study. I am suggesting the evidence base is limited and what Andrew did is the closest I’ve seen to a controlled experiment, unless I am missing something? I do research/machine learning/deep learning for a living and am pretty careful with what I would classify as a study. Andrew did not conduct a study to my knowledge, he unintentionally or intentionally mimicked components of one though. I don’t recall Andrew taking growth measurements. He simply observed faster growth and better color. I don’t think there is anything wrong with being skeptical of his findings, perhaps maybe he is lying? I don’t see why he would lie or the motivation behind that, but that’s ok. It sounds like for you to believe him though you would need some growth measurements wrapped in confidence intervals. I wager even if he has those you might be disturbed and want more.

Can you send me the coral labs study? Does it compare growth rates between MH and Led in a semi controlled environment? Who conducted the study? Is this the Ecotech project? I’d like to check it out. I’m all for seeing evidence contrary to what Andrew observed. I haven’t seen it yet.

Yea, I agree BRS sold lots of bulbs. Selling lots of LEDs now…I’m waiting and saving up for that gen25 to be released.

 

[BeanAnimal]

From @BeanAnimal - "Do you really want their answers? Mike Paletta runs Radions. He ran halides for decades. He has indicated (go read/watch for yourself) that the explosion of SPS color in the hobby is partly due to corals coloring up under LEDs."

Dude, it's not even worth writing back to you...lol. You didn't say this, who did? No need to respond, just send the video/article where he said leds color up corals better.

Again, you missed the entire context of the post.

In any case he says it in several videos and presentations. You can parse it however you wish. That is beyond the point here and that point was that neither of their views support Grandis’ argument and he cited them as such.

Check the Rico’s Aquariums tank tour video, and here at 8:00 he begins and at 8:56 “color up under LEDs”

Again, parse those words any way you wish. I am not here to debate them as true or false.

 

[BeanAnimal]

I’ve never seen coloration or robustness under LEDs like MH. It’s not even close.

I do not agree with that. LEDs provide tons of coloration that you can’t get from halides without actinic or other supplementation. Like everything else, aesthetics is in the eye of the beholder. You may prefer something very different than I do.

 

[Z Burn's Reefing]

Again, you missed the entire context of the post.

In any case he says it in several videos and presentations. You can parse it however you wish. That is beyond the point here and that point was that neither of their views support Grandis’ argument and he cited them as such.

Check the Rico’s Aquariums tank tour video, and here at 8:00 he begins and at 8:56 “color up under LEDs”

Again, parse those words any way you wish. I am not here to debate them as true or false.

Thanks for sending it over. Just watched/listened to what Mike said. I had assumed your statement suggested that Mike said LEDs are superior to MH in coloring up corals. I clearly must have misunderstood you as that is no where near what he is saying in this video.

 

[djf91]

BALU400-CWA/V5 (7276) Plusrite 400W High Pressure Sodium Ballast Kit - S51 5-tap

The BALU400-CWA/V5 (7276) from Plusrite is a 400W 5 tap HPS ballast for ANSI S51 with CWA circuit.

ballastshop.com

HPS Lighting - Reef Central Online Community

HPS Lighting Appalachian Reef Society

www.reefcentral.com

HPS ballasts appear to be the best way to run the German MH bulbs to spec for anyone interested.

 

[BeanAnimal]

BALU400-CWA/V5 (7276) Plusrite 400W High Pressure Sodium Ballast Kit - S51 5-tap

The BALU400-CWA/V5 (7276) from Plusrite is a 400W 5 tap HPS ballast for ANSI S51 with CWA circuit.

ballastshop.com

HPS Lighting - Reef Central Online Community

HPS Lighting Appalachian Reef Society

www.reefcentral.com

HPS ballasts appear to be the best way to run the German MH bulbs to spec for anyone interested.

If @PaulErik is still around and willing, he can provide valuable insight. Most everything I know about ballast topology came via his brain, and I only absorbed a portion of what he had to offer.

 

[oreo54]

I don’t recall “hanging” my hat on one “amateur” study. I am suggesting the evidence base is limited and what Andrew did is the closest I’ve seen to a controlled experiment, unless I am missing something? I do research/machine learning/deep learning for a living and am pretty careful with what I would classify as a study. Andrew did not conduct a study to my knowledge, he unintentionally or intentionally mimicked components of one though. I don’t recall Andrew taking growth measurements. He simply observed faster growth and better color. I don’t think there is anything wrong with being skeptical of his findings, perhaps maybe he is lying? I don’t see why he would lie or the motivation behind that, but that’s ok. It sounds like for you to believe him though you would need some growth measurements wrapped in confidence intervals. I wager even if he has those you might be disturbed and want more.

Can you send me the coral labs study? Does it compare growth rates between MH and Led in a semi controlled environment? Who conducted the study? Is this the Ecotech project? I’d like to check it out. I’m all for seeing evidence contrary to what Andrew observed. I haven’t seen it yet.

Yea, I agree BRS sold lots of bulbs. Selling lots of LEDs now…I’m waiting and saving up for that gen25 to be released.

Pretty sure they still sell a lot of t5 bulbs.
Hard to sell mh bulbs when manuf aren't making them
Now to be clear I'm pretty sure ( and stated it in the past) this lack of supply will shake out.

 

[Madison Reef]

Radium has not made DE bulbs for more than a decade.

Phoenix Electric Company in Japan has contact info on their website with form-based inquiry. I asked them and they would not either confirm nor deny that they would make bulbs again... they have made batches before with supply valleys before new ones came out. There are no laws preventing them either. I asked them a follow up and they never wrote me back.

Probably their way of saying "no" in a nice way.

The evolution of halides in this hobby will depend on the real demand by the hobbyists that appreciate the unique value of the technology. New timed sleek fixtures, ceramic metal halide systems and advanced magnetic/electronic ballasts are only some of the exciting features we could see in the future. Those evolutionary aspects of metal halide systems should be in the hobby today! Manufacturers need to understand that advertisement needs to follow this new emerging and it needs to happen asap.

I will be really thrilled to see if aquarium company would be interested in producing CMH for higher kelvin. Is 6500k the highest? There was another thread who tried cmh but was not good fit because of low k.

Thanks all,
Good news on the home front.

I am not the smartest guy, and have no marketing experience.

I do think if a new company was to set up shop selling MH gear they would do like the LED knuckleheads do.

Introduce your product with reasonable price tag. Once sales take off then slowly increase the price.

So many people run LED that have never used MH or probably even seen a tank running with them.

If the MH set up was affordable enough for the average person to switch over, I believe more people would be willing to try running MH.

If it costs just as much or more to swap out LED, then the consumers on the fence will be hard to push over.

Once the MH market is going strong again the king will rule until other manufacturers step up their game.

The toilet paper reefers that have years worth of bulbs stashed away aren’t going to be the repeat customers. The converted LED users will be the greatest asset. Catering to them and targeting that market should be the main goal. Kinda like the dude on the corner, come on man, first hit is free.

I would love to see full blown display tanks at the local fish stores again. Sustainable coral growth will increase and market prices decrease.

Overall this could be a big win for the hobby, industry, or a fizzled out pipe dream.

This! Well said!

Couldn’t agree more with this right here. In my city back in the 2000s, multiple local shops had some of the most beautiful SPS displays full of huge healthy colonies, under full spectrum metal halide lighting. This was literally what converted me from freshwater to saltwater. Today, I don’t really even bother going to the shops because of the dim blue windex display tanks full of sickly frags that haven’t grown in a year.

It's sad that people who start the hobby nowadays don't see halides often in LFS thus don't even consider MH.

The price of a halide system will always be fair. We buy the fixture only once and it will they last forever. Ballasts too! I have ballasts from the 90's still working! LOL! Change bulbs every year or 2 @ $60.00 - $100.00 per bulb? That's very cheap!!!! Top quality of light with a FAIR price tag to have amazing results that we don't see with another technology!

This is not true tho. Production of halide bulbs do not cost much but it is highly marked up by (greedy) companies. One reason why I am trying to import bulbs rather than source it from USA. Reef hobby in general is overpriced. For the company you mentioned, they are selling at $99 for both 250w and 400w. Let me tell you that anyone can get 400w radium from overseas for $63. Should I also tell you how much it would be if I were to open a business account and import them directly? Having nothing is the worst but allowing monopoly because of the fear of not having it is never good.

 

[Madison Reef]

I appreciate everyone in the conversation as I learn a lot just by reading comments, but........ can we just celebrate the fact that we have resurrected radium bulb, the golden standard of metal halide?
Can you all go create another thread talking about "superiority" (however you want to define it) of technology separate? Reef2reef should be family friendly. Instead of attacking people, just accept the fact that people have preference over light source. Every MH related thread I read has some kind of "fights," and I am sick of it.

Personally I use T5, LED, MH. So I may be considered "not devoted" metal halide user, but I still love metal halide along with LED and T5. They all have pros and cons.

 

[A. grandis]

Nothing was taken out of context, that is 100% inline. If you are distracted, it is your own doing. You said LEDs are a scam. I asked you to explain.

Alright...

I'll get 4 classic examples:

SOLARIS
The very first LED in the market was the Solaris. They released a video showing how more "efficient" the Solaris was in comparison to a 400W metal halide measuring PAR, as PAR was the only thing in important in this world to maintain corals and, as that higher PAR was a great advantage over using halides in any reef. Just to know later that the higher the PAR, the worse would be for the corals under LED lenses.
Application is everything... even to convince people what to buy!


RADION
That PDF with a very nice representation published by Eco Tech, using a very nice fancy name Coral Lab, showing how much "better" their Radion was in comparison to metal halides.
While we all know that any application is what will dictate results, and manipulation can prove anything, using the term "best" was first introduced to fool newcomers AND old timers into their trap. The trap of stating "BEST" when comparing their product with halides and T5s

Why can Eco Tech say LEDs are "better" than halides, and "better" than T5s using that comparison and applying the right application with their LEDs at 100% and T5s and Halides so far way from the systems? Using the right areas (spots within the PAR distribution) and the right corals to prove their points? To $ell!
It's well known since back then! But every Radion user ignored the facts, after spending so much money on those fixtures! That's what they call confirmation bias.
The application for the comparison could work for the test over that set up, but as we know, guys like Chris Meckley have published how much those Radions are far behind halides in the long run. That is the proof that manipulation can do wonders for a nice written apple looking promotional PDF.

https://ecotechmarine.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/ReefWholesale_CoralLab.pdf

This dog knows the secret involved! Sorry, I just love dogs and that is the only thing worth it in all those pages. If anyone reading this have a dog, please post a picture of your dog. Yes, we gotta put the "dogs in this fight".

"HALIDES ARE DEAD".
BrS published a video mocking metal halides without ANY professionalism. Pure marketing strategy! No respect! No consideration! No professionalism!

Those are just some classic ones. Throughout many years we saw so many stupid aggression towards halides and their users that it's not even funny. You can find some of those agressions here in this forum. Many were deleted, though.
Many famous authors and hobbyists used such information as the basis to forget about halides and T5 at once and to promote LEDs. It was a movement! No one can deny!
BrS removed all metal halide gear from their site during the time of that video as a point to be made! Marketing strategy! But, was everything that they published in that video true? Or not? marketing strategy without true statements makes it a scam in my book.


As you've said... "best" is relative. I agree with you. If you don't believe me go search under my messages in this forum.
Application is very important. The different technologies will serve different applications and different results. Yes, different personal preferences also play, I know. Everyone needs to be respected. I always say that!
Did any of the examples above respected the hobbyists?

Do you know that the demand for metal halides was exponentially growing when BrS decided to remove all halide gear from their website??? When I called them they said there was no room for halide gear on their shelves. They told me Ryan didn't have a direct line, so I couldn't speak with him. The sad truth is that after I called them I also called Hamilton and ReefBrite to ask if they would send their gear from their facilities and they both said yes. Called BrS back and told them that. They said "sorry". I told them I was going to publish that on the forum and they said "yeah, no problem"... Anyways... all published and people here are tired of knowing all this!
I guess it's always good to refresh our minds and remember bad things too!

SKY

The Sky was another LED that tried to compare their quality to T5s and also mentioned halides on their first propaganda, trying to send that promotional message and the thing in the air as the best reproduction of sunlight, specially with the name brand. That light tried to take over the market, diminishing halides and T5s (that's what they always try), but people wasn't stupid to let every statement and sponsorship they used to fool them anymore. That is the truth!


There are other types of scams, like for example the recommendation for LED coverage by each manufacturer has been proved to be insufficient. In the end people need to get more LEDs or even T5s to have a decent coverage. The term UV is widely used and in reality most LEDs do not have any UV emission. That's another scam! So many LED fixtures say they are full spectrum and they are not!!!! Another scam!

Alright, now we go for that classic list of good guys saying good things about the KING of lights and some very nice videos for the kids to watch and learn more about the importance of the aspects of light quality:

Paletta's old system (please compare to what he has today!):

Greg, this is for you to compare to what you have now! Love you, man!






Oh man... I just love to talk about the benefits of metal halide!
You got me in a good mood and with a spare time to share, which is rare.
Thanks for boosting up.

 

[A. grandis]

I appreciate everyone in the conversation as I learn a lot just by reading comments, but........ can we just celebrate the fact that we have resurrected radium bulb, the golden standard of metal halide?
Can you all go create another thread talking about "superiority" (however you want to define it) of technology separate? Reef2reef should be family friendly. Instead of attacking people, just accept the fact that people have preference over light source. Every MH related thread I read has some kind of "fights," and I am sick of it.

Personally I use T5, LED, MH. So I may be considered "not devoted" metal halide user, but I still love metal halide along with LED and T5. They all have pros and cons.

I wish... but you think everyone is happy with this celebration?
They come here to hear the truth and they will go away.
It happens all the time.
Or after we all ignore them at once and talk about the good things again. It's part of the process.

 

[A. grandis]

Shucks! I guess I didn't watch this video for a while and I almost cried right now... This was really a nice tank and a great example of what many can find missing today, not only in the lighting aspect, but in many other aspects as well. I miss Jake!
Breath taking!
Good night all. God bless.

 

[AquaLogic]

MH for the win. IMO, LEDs just don’t have the punch that halides do and I’ve never seen coloration or robustness under LEDs like MH. It’s not even close. Not saying Leds don’t have some advantages but let’s get real…we are keeping animals that thrive around the equator under a tropical sun. They need that. That’s natural. Anything we can create that somewhat simulates the natural environment should be u

I ran halides for a long time and loved them. My favorite bulbs were phoenix 14k. I can adjust my new Kessil a500x to what looks identical to the phoneix 14k to my eyes. I have no interest in the debate over which is better, but I do think a Kessil light looks pretty darn close to a halide. I still think halides are are great, but I like the control of the Kessil.

 

[Yanir34]

Oh, you're here... Thanks for stopping by.
False?
You want to read more?
Show me any other technology that will give exactly what halides give in terms of the qualities of light and I'll shut up forever.
Show me any result that will be legit (not from bias nor from LED companies!) comparing LEDs, T5s and halides that will be the same.
Show me your corals under LEDs! Be truthful and tell me that you can do the same (or even better) with LEDs that you did with halides/T5s.
For most guys that say LEDs are better will be defending their sales!
I'm not alone in this anymore and many are starting to realize that generally speaking LED lighting isn't the OPTIMAL for reefing! It's acceptable. Can I use incandescent bulbs and achieve better results than LEDs? Huh!
I see many wonderful tanks under LEDs, but not quite like under halides. They are just different! And we should be able to choose whatever we want!
All I posted is the truth! This LED market only wants to put halide down for profit! Everyone can see that!!
They made a big mistake when they started to compare their products to halides/T5 and stated LEDs as "better" in so many aspects just for sales! So many old reefers went into their lies about saving energy and better efficiency! Ask Sanjay! Ask Mike! Ask public aquariums that take seriously the quality of their life stock, not green political stuff! Ask the corals farmers! Ask all the hobbyists that see the truth and invest time fighting for their rights! All about money! Search and you will find!

Show me your system under LEDs and show me your system under halides. As long as you like the LEDs better, that is what matters to you!

Here is Mt tank ,powerd with ATI power module 10×54w T5 bulbs + 2 kessil 360x.
this tank is 1.5 year old .
All sps started as frags !
I'm very happy with the results !
my tank any many other tanks that powerd with MH/T5's are living proof to your claims my friend.

 

[Madison Reef]

I ran halides for a long time and loved them. My favorite bulbs were phoenix 14k. I can adjust my new Kessil a500x to what looks identical to the phoneix 14k to my eyes. I have no interest in the debate over which is better, but I do think a Kessil light looks pretty darn close to a halide. I still think halides are are great, but I like the control of the Kessil.

we rather need to have a debate regarding how we should reach out to phoenix and ushio to convince them to follow radium.

 

[Madison Reef]

Here is Mt tank ,powerd with ATI power module 10×54w T5 bulbs + 2 kessil 360x.
this tank is 1.5 year old .
All sps started as frags !
I'm very happy with the results !
my tank any many other tanks that powerd with MH/T5's are living proof to your claims my friend.

What an amazing tank! It's mesmerizing to watch your pristine piece of ocean. Yes your tank is the perfect example of different technologies capable of sucessfully grow corals. How did you mount your kessil on t5 fixture? I also have kessil (with metal halide) that I want to attach to the rail. Is it diy?

 

[Madison Reef]

I wish... but you think everyone is happy with this celebration?
They come here to hear the truth and they will go away.
It happens all the time.
Or after we all ignore them at once and talk about the good things again. It's part of the process.

Everyone is happy as long as we respect each other and give them some space. What I feel sad about is that every MH thread gets turned into a debate, and I am really sick of it.
They come here to hear "the truth" and it's their choice to accept or not accept "the truth" regardless of its truth value, regardless how you want to define the term "the truth."

Yes I suggest everyone ignore debating part (at least on this thread) and talk about the good things again (that radium bulbs being resurrected). Maybe we can show photos of our newly acquired bulbs cooking corals to make non metal halide users to be jealous lol IDK. It seems like everyone has different opinion and all agree to disagree on this particular matter.

In my observation, you tend to ignore other people's valid points and only assert your point of view, which is not that effective way of exchanging opinions.

@BeanAnimal does have a point but did not have to come here and provoke.
Also, both you and he could have also engaged in a meaningful conversation but chose to not to.

I'm only saying this because I want this thread to be about metal halide bulbs, not about which light source is superior. Perhaps I should start a new thread....?

One suggestion is we can talk about iwasaki 6500 (IMHO another gold standard but on whiter spectrum) since I just placed an order for one. (very excited now I can compare it vs hamilton 20k It's been more than a decade I have seen 6500 kelvin bulbs with my own eyes) This is not a different version that I mentioned before but it's the same bulb that battlecoral uses.

It seems like nowadays people love blue lights (14k - 20k kelvin) but I always loved the tank with "natural" (however you want to define the tern "natural") light which is around 6500 kelvin to 10000 kelvin.
I will also try to revive and convince or even beg others for MH with my report. I consider this a positive way of begging other people to join MH community.

 

[Madison Reef]

By any chance, does anyone know if unsued bulbs that were produced a long time ago go bad eventually?
Do they degrade over time even if they don't get used?
I'm talking about more than 10 years. probably more like 20 years.

 

[gastone]

BALU400-CWA/V5 (7276) Plusrite 400W High Pressure Sodium Ballast Kit - S51 5-tap

The BALU400-CWA/V5 (7276) from Plusrite is a 400W 5 tap HPS ballast for ANSI S51 with CWA circuit.

ballastshop.com

HPS Lighting - Reef Central Online Community

HPS Lighting Appalachian Reef Society

www.reefcentral.com

HPS ballasts appear to be the best way to run the German MH bulbs to spec for anyone interested.

If @PaulErik is still around and willing, he can provide valuable insight. Most everything I know about ballast topology came via his brain, and I only absorbed a portion of what he had to offer.

I'm back in the hobby after a 15 year layoff. My last setup I was using a 250w Radium pushed by an S50 ballast, supplemented by T5 Blue+ and VHO Actinics. I loved that setup. When researching the best way to run Radiums, this is what Paul Erik told me on the old RC:

A North American 250-watt HPS (ANSI S50) is similar to a metal halide HQI (ANSI M80) Ballast. Both ballasts limit lamp current to the same level (3.0 amps). The main difference is the starting voltage and starting amperage. The difference is generally close enough to not cause any major problems. The only problem could be reliable lamp starting. After start up both ANSI S50 and ANSI M80 ballasts will operate a lamp similarly. Higher voltage lamp starters are available but are not common. In the commercial industry we have installed ANSI M80 spec lamps in HPS fixtures but we replaced the lamp starter/ignitor with a high voltage (4000-5000V) superimposed ignitor. The lamps did light with standard HPS ignitor but when lamps age they require a higher starting voltage to light reliably. In the commercial lighting field the lamps will be used for a longer time period than in the aquarium lighting field so this might not be a problem.

Those S50 ballasts can still be had for well under $100. I didn't see any degradation in the bulbs for well over a year as these ballasts run pretty much to spec. Underdriving with an electronic ballast might gives nice blues, but it also shortens bulb life.

 

[oreo54]

. When researching the best way to run Radiums, this is what Paul Erik told me on the old RC:

A North American 250-watt HPS (ANSI S50) is similar to a metal halide HQI (ANSI M80) Ballast. Both ballasts limit lamp current to the same level (3.0 amps). The main difference is the starting voltage and starting amperage. The difference is generally close enough to not cause any major problems. The only problem could be reliable lamp starting. After start up both ANSI S50 and ANSI M80 ballasts will operate a lamp similarly. Higher voltage lamp starters are available but are not common. In the commercial industry we have installed ANSI M80 spec lamps in HPS fixtures but we replaced the lamp starter/ignitor with a high voltage (4000-5000V) superimposed ignitor. The lamps did light with standard HPS ignitor but when lamps age they require a higher starting voltage to light reliably. In the commercial lighting field the lamps will be used for a longer time period than in the aquarium lighting field so this might not be a problem.

Those S50 ballasts can still be had for well under $100. I didn't see any degradation in the bulbs for well over a year as these ballasts run pretty much to spec. Underdriving with an electronic ballast might gives nice blues, but it also shortens bulb life.

Metal Halide Ballasts, which one is which? Answers here: - Reef Central Online Community Archives

Metal Halide Ballasts, which one is which? Answers here: Lighting, Filtration & Other Equipment

archive.reefcentral.com