Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[Dkeller_nc]

For now I’m going with the deer and maggots analogy.

Yeah, the article I linked does quite a nice job summarizing the current research, at least current as of 5 years ago, when the supposition of Philaster and several other species of ciliates/protozoans was hypothesized to be the root cause of half a dozen coral diseases, including RTN. The article mentions that it's not easy to go from correlation (finding the ciliates at the site of the damage) to causation.

Perhaps additional peer-reviewed research will establish a causative link.

 

[Jose Mayo]

@Jose Mayo I really appreciate your contribution to this thread. Very interesting information! May I ask your background and how you know this? Please PM if your are not comfortable posting that in this thread. Thanks for bringing us another step closer to figuring out what exactly is going on.

Perhaps the question is not credentials or beliefs. I am a medical graduate and also an aquarist. When I made my discovery that FLUCONAZOL could control Bryopsis sp, I first tested it with my own means to be convinced, then studied all the sources I could to elucidate its mechanism of action and its safety for the purpose involved (Bryopsis control), and then I showed what I had discovered to my fellow aquarists, publicly, so that they could also experiment and discuss their experiments with me. Even today, and it's been 7 years since then, I follow the experiments publications on various aquarium sites around the world and I come in to answer questions from colleagues when it's needed. I never hid my information behind a <proprietary formula> nor ever intended to make money from it. I was just happy to somehow contribute to the hobby's skill set and that's enough for me.

Regards

 

[Reefahholic]

This whole thing is beginning to smell a bit fishy. You've got Dr. Dre insulting folks who have the temerity to challenge his claims and folks making huge leaps of faith. A bit like the old scrubbing bubbles thread lol. Like I said earlier, I hope it’s true and that a reasonable remedy can be found. For now I’m going with the deer and maggots analogy.

I think everybody has the right to challenge, but you have to admit that there’s been some ugly comments.

I wish we could all put our differences aside and really try to understand this new information.

I think that they are in about every single tank. Of course it’s possible that maybe some how a person can get lucky, but I’m not convinced that if a coral “isn’t infected” that the tank doesn’t have them. Or if one coral is affected that more will absolutely be infected in a given timeframe.

It think it’s possible that if a tank has perfect parameters and all elements are on point that the coral will not get stressed and therefore not be attacked.

 

[Reefahholic]

Perhaps the question is not credentials or beliefs. I am a medical graduate and also an aquarist. When I made my discovery that FLUCONAZOL could control Bryopsis sp, I first tested it with my own means to be convinced, then studied all the sources I could to elucidate its mechanism of action and its safety for the purpose involved (Bryopsis control), and then I showed what I had discovered to my fellow aquarists, publicly, so that they could also experiment and discuss their experiments with me. Even today, and it's been 7 years since then, I follow the experiments publications on various aquarium sites around the world and I come in to answer questions from colleagues when it's needed. I never hid my information behind a <proprietary formula> nor ever intended to make money from it. I was just happy to somehow contribute to the hobby's skill set and that's enough for me.

Regards

I respect that and I wish that the Prime Coral product was a little less expensive so that we could all enjoy it. Even those of us who may not be financially well off. However, he has the right to ask what he wants. He said the cost of the product was quite a bit to make. I don’t know what it is so I can’t comment on that.

Take Ecotech for example. I’ve always wanted MP40’s, but I just can’t justify paying that much for one wave maker when a Jebao does the job fairly well. I can’t blame them for wanting to make a nice profit.

 

[ca1ore]

I just generslly ignore and skip over the negative comments and mentally tag the poster as ‘idiot’ - unless of course it’s funny.

 

[Reefahholic]

In order to collaborate, the parasite Philaster lucinda is known to be sensitive to metronidazole in low concentration, with MIC (minimum inhibitory concentration) of the order of 1 mg / liter administered 12/12 hours for 6 days. Metronidazole is safe for fish, corals, crustaceans and the biological filter (at this concentration and up to 10 times higher), not reaching the nitrogen cycle and can be administered directly in the display tank without major consequences. However ... well-conducted eradication experiments of the parasite Philaster lucinda failed to halt the progression of RTN in corals, as demonstrated in the topic below:

Probable new approach in STN syndrome?

Regards

So how much would I need to mix up to test- say... .3-.5 cc of water with Phalister’s on the slide for it to be lethal? I’m gonna do some more videos. Maybe Frank will let me get my other scope with the photo port.

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah, the article I linked does quite a nice job summarizing the current research, at least current as of 5 years ago, when the supposition of Philaster and several other species of ciliates/protozoans was hypothesized to be the root cause of half a dozen coral diseases, including RTN. The article mentions that it's not easy to go from correlation (finding the ciliates at the site of the damage) to causation.

Perhaps additional peer-reviewed research will establish a causative link.

Im not sure which paper you put up - but there seems to be a fair bit of research on it:




https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mec.13097
( all samples of the disease were specifically associated with the histophagous ciliate Philaster lucinda. From the pattern of disease progression and histopathology in relation to the selective elimination of microbial groups, we conclude that these ‘white’ diseases are a result of a nonspecific bacterial infection and a ‘secondary’ infection by the P. lucinda ciliate. Although we have not observed the initiation of infection, a nonspecific, multispecies bacterial infection appears to be a corequirement for WS lesion progression and we hypothesize that the bacterial infection occurs initially, weakening the defences of the host to predation by the ciliates.)

(Philaster lucinda shared 100% sequence similarity of 596 base pairs to the recently described ciliate (Morph 1) associated with WS in both the Great Barrier Reef and the Solomon Islands (Sweet & Bythell 2012). This species was absent in all four samples treated with metronidazole, even though the lesion continued to progress in those treatments. However, the advance rate of the lesion slowed from an average of 0.16 to 0.08 cm−3 per day. Furthermore, the exposed skeleton on corals treated with metronidazole was discoloured and the lesion boundary did not exhibit the sharp demarcation, as is characteristic of this disease (Sweet & Bythell 2012). This result suggested a different pathology occurred with the absence of this ciliate species.)

http://www.korallionlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Sweet_and_Sere_2015.pdf
(Here we show that a wide variety of ciliates are associated with all nine coral diseases assessed. Many of these ciliates such as Trochilia petrani and Glauconema trihymene feed on the bacteria which are likely colonizing the bare skeleton exposed by the advancing disease lesion or the necrotic tissue itself. Others such as Pseudokeronopsis and Licnophora macfarlandi are common predators of other protozoans and will be attracted by the increase in other ciliate species to the lesion interface. However, a few ciliate species (namely Varistrombidium kielum, Philaster lucinda, Philaster guamense, a Euplotes sp., aTrachelotractus sp. and a Condylostoma sp.) appear to harbor symbiotic algae, potentially from the coral them- selves, a result which may indicate that they play some role in the disease pathology at the very least. Although, from this study alone we are not able to discern what roles any of these ciliates play in disease causation, the con- sistent presence of such communities with disease lesion interfaces warrants further investigation.)

 

[ca1ore]

My main issue is that I agree with the point that most/all tanks will have these bugs. I suppose there may be some folks that have never had a colony go RTN, but I am not among them. So if all RTN is bugs, and I’ve expetienced RTN, why didn’t I lose all my colonies? Just seems like there must be more at play here. I’m also VERY reluctant to use meds of any kind in my display. I always try to find biological solutions.

 

[ca1ore]

Im not sure which paper you put up - but there seems to be a fair bit of research on it:




https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mec.13097
( all samples of the disease were specifically associated with the histophagous ciliate Philaster lucinda. From the pattern of disease progression and histopathology in relation to the selective elimination of microbial groups, we conclude that these ‘white’ diseases are a result of a nonspecific bacterial infection and a ‘secondary’ infection by the P. lucinda ciliate. Although we have not observed the initiation of infection, a nonspecific, multispecies bacterial infection appears to be a corequirement for WS lesion progression and we hypothesize that the bacterial infection occurs initially, weakening the defences of the host to predation by the ciliates.)

(Philaster lucinda shared 100% sequence similarity of 596 base pairs to the recently described ciliate (Morph 1) associated with WS in both the Great Barrier Reef and the Solomon Islands (Sweet & Bythell 2012). This species was absent in all four samples treated with metronidazole, even though the lesion continued to progress in those treatments. However, the advance rate of the lesion slowed from an average of 0.16 to 0.08 cm−3 per day. Furthermore, the exposed skeleton on corals treated with metronidazole was discoloured and the lesion boundary did not exhibit the sharp demarcation, as is characteristic of this disease (Sweet & Bythell 2012). This result suggested a different pathology occurred with the absence of this ciliate species.)

http://www.korallionlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Sweet_and_Sere_2015.pdf
(Here we show that a wide variety of ciliates are associated with all nine coral diseases assessed. Many of these ciliates such as Trochilia petrani and Glauconema trihymene feed on the bacteria which are likely colonizing the bare skeleton exposed by the advancing disease lesion or the necrotic tissue itself. Others such as Pseudokeronopsis and Licnophora macfarlandi are common predators of other protozoans and will be attracted by the increase in other ciliate species to the lesion interface. However, a few ciliate species (namely Varistrombidium kielum, Philaster lucinda, Philaster guamense, a Euplotes sp., aTrachelotractus sp. and a Condylostoma sp.) appear to harbor symbiotic algae, potentially from the coral them- selves, a result which may indicate that they play some role in the disease pathology at the very least. Although, from this study alone we are not able to discern what roles any of these ciliates play in disease causation, the con- sistent presence of such communities with disease lesion interfaces warrants further investigation.)

 

[jda]

Dustin was just a guy working for a coral company when he figured out that MBE killed red bugs. He was taken seriously because everything that he demonstrated lined up with all hobbyists experiences and passed every test of muster. I don't recall that anybody ever asked him for any credentials, but he made no outlandish claims. The circumstance beget the request, in this case.

Maybe it is just me, but this does not pass hardly any tests of muster including common sense, actual hobbyist experiences and the feel of this thread os all wrong. How is that for science?

I wonder if I am funny or an idiot? Common sense tells me the latter. I have thick enough skin and don't get too upset with online posts, but to me, any insensitive commentary on this thread seems to be at a reasonably appropriate balance with the contradictory and unfounded claims. You cannot really clean up one without the other, IMO.

Here is my bottom line - if anybody wants to believe that these protozoans are an issue, then just use some Metro... it is cheap, safe and effective against them. Then, send a Thank You message to Jose.

 

[MnFish1]

So how much would I need to mix up to test- say... .3-.5 cc of water with Phalister’s on the slide for it to be lethal? I’m gonna do some more videos. Maybe Frank will let me get my other scope with the photo port.

In the research quoted - it states that metronidazole kills the ciliate - yet the disease continued to progress.....

 

[ca1ore]

Im not sure which paper you put up - but there seems to be a fair bit of research on it:




https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mec.13097
( all samples of the disease were specifically associated with the histophagous ciliate Philaster lucinda. From the pattern of disease progression and histopathology in relation to the selective elimination of microbial groups, we conclude that these ‘white’ diseases are a result of a nonspecific bacterial infection and a ‘secondary’ infection by the P. lucinda ciliate. Although we have not observed the initiation of infection, a nonspecific, multispecies bacterial infection appears to be a corequirement for WS lesion progression and we hypothesize that the bacterial infection occurs initially, weakening the defences of the host to predation by the ciliates.)

(Philaster lucinda shared 100% sequence similarity of 596 base pairs to the recently described ciliate (Morph 1) associated with WS in both the Great Barrier Reef and the Solomon Islands (Sweet & Bythell 2012). This species was absent in all four samples treated with metronidazole, even though the lesion continued to progress in those treatments. However, the advance rate of the lesion slowed from an average of 0.16 to 0.08 cm−3 per day. Furthermore, the exposed skeleton on corals treated with metronidazole was discoloured and the lesion boundary did not exhibit the sharp demarcation, as is characteristic of this disease (Sweet & Bythell 2012). This result suggested a different pathology occurred with the absence of this ciliate species.)

http://www.korallionlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Sweet_and_Sere_2015.pdf
(Here we show that a wide variety of ciliates are associated with all nine coral diseases assessed. Many of these ciliates such as Trochilia petrani and Glauconema trihymene feed on the bacteria which are likely colonizing the bare skeleton exposed by the advancing disease lesion or the necrotic tissue itself. Others such as Pseudokeronopsis and Licnophora macfarlandi are common predators of other protozoans and will be attracted by the increase in other ciliate species to the lesion interface. However, a few ciliate species (namely Varistrombidium kielum, Philaster lucinda, Philaster guamense, a Euplotes sp., aTrachelotractus sp. and a Condylostoma sp.) appear to harbor symbiotic algae, potentially from the coral them- selves, a result which may indicate that they play some role in the disease pathology at the very least. Although, from this study alone we are not able to discern what roles any of these ciliates play in disease causation, the con- sistent presence of such communities with disease lesion interfaces warrants further investigation.)

Sorry for quoting the whole thing. On my phone somewhere over Texas.... anyhow, I’ve seen those before and they strike a much more reasonable tone to me. I do think laypeople, self included, leap before they look.

 

[Reefahholic]

I just generslly ignore and skip over the negative comments and mentally tag the poster as ‘idiot’ - unless of course it’s funny.

Yeah, I hear you. Just really wanting to understand this issue w/o anybody getting too upset with each other.

 

[Reefahholic]

In the research quoted - it states that metronidazole kills the ciliate - yet the disease continued to progress.....

Metro kills Uronema too. In fact I haven’t had success with anything else but Metroplex. Treating the water column with double the normal dose and also soaking the fishes food.

Kinda crazy that (Uronema & the Philaster Lucinda) are both sensitive to that. But we do not know for sure if the Philaster is.

 

[Reefahholic]

The bug I really wanna smoke is that Philaster Lucinda. Wait till I get a hold of some with a photo-port scope. ;Spiderman

 

[MnFish1]

Yeah, I hear you. Just really wanting to understand this issue w/o anybody getting too upset with each other.

BTW you have a nice tank... and Youtube channel. I didnt notice in the original post you linked to one of the same articles I did

Metro kills Uronema too. In fact I haven’t had success with anything else but Metroplex. Treating the water column with double the normal dose and also soaking the fishes food.
Kinda crazy they’re (Uronema & Philaster Lucinda) both sensitive to that.

Its interesting that in the paper it specifically states that metronidazole (which kills the ciliate) does not stop the disease - but seems to slow down the rate of progression.

 

[jda]

Metro kills Perkinsus too... a protozoan than plagues stressed wild clams.

 

[Jose Mayo]

A coral is a holobionte, that is, for its vital system to function, the coral houses in its body several other organisms. The most studied organism, in symbiosis with the coral, is the zooxantella, a dinoflagellate of the genus Symbiodinium sp, but on its surface (and also in its tissues and skeleton), there are many other organisms that relate to it, forming the complex a which we call holobionte. Among these organisms (microorganisms), there are bacteria, cyanobacteria, dinoflagellates, fungi, protozoa and viruses. Of these, some are <potentially pathogenic>, and when, for some reason, this microbiota or coral is unbalanced, there may be occasion for invasion and destruction of coral tissues, whereby one or more of components of the microbiota involved. Up to the present time, it is known that there are many microorganisms present in all cases of coral tissue ulceration and skeletal exposure (white diseases), but it is still uncertain what is the causal factor and the microorganism that begins the process or ends it. In an antibiotic-based antimicrobial approach, it was found that metronidazole is able to eradicate easily the protozoan Philaster lucida, but this did not prevent the progression of RTN, although ampicillin, although it did not act against the Philaster, prevented it ... it was concluded that although the Philaster lucida was active in the lesion and was clearly feeding on the tissues of the coral, the most probable cause would be some organism also present and sensitive to ampicillin and, among the present ones, the genus Vibrio sp, especially Vibrio vulnificus and Vibrio coralliilyticus, were the most suspect. Interestingly, in equilibrium, these Vibrio sp live on the coral without invading it, but if there is a lack of iron in the environment, they will invade the coral to get it.

Regards

 

[coral408]

Very interesting topic, I just have an acro RTN yesterday and tried to save the rest by cutting off the infected portions. Today I found RTN continued with the rest! only one branch still hanging on but I doubt it can survive!
I know all of us will be frustrated to see our corals to be RTN...so, if there is a possible solution to stop, it maybe worth to try...Does anyone experience with STOP RTN reagents from Coral Prime?

 

[DMG Reef]

Acro keepers would be better served by looking for the actual cause of their acro deaths. I'm open-minded and generally optimistic about new products, but this just doesn't add up. I recently fought AEFW and defeated it with Purge from UWC. This theory of protozoans attacking weakened acros should have meant that my flatworm infested acros should have also been attacked and eaten by Philasters. But, nope. They recovered after the AEFW was eliminated. So then, what? My system doesn't have any Philasters in it? I have over 60 acros from multiple sources, including wild collected. Highly unlikely that I don't have Philasters if they are even remotely common since I have had acros RTN in the past.

Also, the Prime Coral website states that some acros will continue to RTN after treatment if they are too far gone. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially, your acros can still die after treatment which gives cover to the company if you don't see any positive results from using it. Your dying acros might keep dying and your healthy acros won't. Kind of like what happens even if you don't use the product...