Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[Reefahholic]

My main issue is that I agree with the point that most/all tanks will have these bugs. I suppose there may be some folks that have never had a colony go RTN, but I am not among them. So if all RTN is bugs, and I’ve expetienced RTN, why didn’t I lose all my colonies? Just seems like there must be more at play here. I’m also VERY reluctant to use meds of any kind in my display. I always try to find biological solutions.

Ca1ore,
My thoughts are that most of us have had RTN because of a mild stress event. Depending on the heath of the corals at that given time depends which corals get attack IMO. Just like with humans, some of us get sick because our immune systems may be lacking which allows the bugs to have access. If a coral is doing well...getting the proper lighting, flow, nutrition, etc...then that particular coral isn’t stressed and his immune system is strong, but the coral that’s receiving too much light or is lacking light and flow is likely becoming compromised allowing the door to swing wide open for the Philaster’s.

I think we all have these things and depending on our maintenance and attention to detail to keep perfect parameters, proper trace elements, nutrients, nutrition, light, flow, heat, etc...will depend on the health of our corals. I feel a lot of these things are luck, but no doubt there’s very intelligent reefers who are just on top of every single thing and keep daily logs books.

 

[Reefahholic]

I'm assuming you've seen this, but the idea that ciliate protozoans might play a role in major coral diseases is hardly a "eureka" moment. There's been quite a bit of research into this subject - this article summarizes some of the more recent studies.

You know he’s already spoke of this study in his videos and gave credit to the sources. I’ll link it for you.

 

[Reefahholic]

Is the dip and the in tank treatment the same ingredients? Or composed of different ingredients? Is the dip supposed to be more effective?

Like most dip treatments...I’d think it would have a higher potency vs the in-tank.

Take LaCI for example. You can’t go fast dosing to your DT because it will stress and kill the corals and fish.

If you have have that leaching rock in a vat you can literally nuke the heck out of it. The dose can go from about 1cc to 100/g dripped slow to 50cc to 100/G instantly. Nuking the leaching PO4 Quickly with only a few treatments. Wink Wink.





I really appreciate all the opinions of everybody that’s given input in this thread. I respect all of you guys both new and old! Let’s keep this discussion healthy and advance the hobby so that we can all enjoy it more and save coral.

 

[jda]

The two products appear totally different. Nobody will likely ever know, but the handing and refrigeration is different.

 

[Prime Coral]

Yeah, the article I linked does quite a nice job summarizing the current research, at least current as of 5 years ago, when the supposition of Philaster and several other species of ciliates/protozoans was hypothesized to be the root cause of half a dozen coral diseases, including RTN. The article mentions that it's not easy to go from correlation (finding the ciliates at the site of the damage) to causation.

Perhaps additional peer-reviewed research will establish a causative link.

Causation can only be established. Y performing experiments that prove all 4 of Koch’s postulates. This is the gold standard to prove a microorganism (protozoans )causes a disease (coral RTN and STN).
I successfully performed these experiments in 2018
https://coralrtn.com/experimental-evidence/

 

[Prime Coral]

Perhaps the question is not credentials or beliefs. I am a medical graduate and also an aquarist. When I made my discovery that FLUCONAZOL could control Bryopsis sp, I first tested it with my own means to be convinced, then studied all the sources I could to elucidate its mechanism of action and its safety for the purpose involved (Bryopsis control), and then I showed what I had discovered to my fellow aquarists, publicly, so that they could also experiment and discuss their experiments with me. Even today, and it's been 7 years since then, I follow the experiments publications on various aquarium sites around the world and I come in to answer questions from colleagues when it's needed. I never hid my information behind a <proprietary formula> nor ever intended to make money from it. I was just happy to somehow contribute to the hobby's skill set and that's enough for me.

Regards

Thank you for sharing. I did the same, made the discovery, tested and retested hundreds of times, Found that none of the current commercial dips etc worked to kill the parasite and had to experiment with new treatments until I discovered what worked. I never intended to sell my dip or in tank treatment , Prime Coral STOP RTN and Prevent RTN but there was such a demand and I couldn’t manufacture for free.
All money made is used for coral research and eventually to save the reefs dying from protozoan infection around the world.

 

[Prime Coral]

I respect that and I wish that the Prime Coral product was a little less expensive so that we could all enjoy it. Even those of us who may not be financially well off. However, he has the right to ask what he wants. He said the cost of the product was quite a bit to make. I don’t know what it is so I can’t comment on that.

Take Ecotech for example. I’ve always wanted MP40’s, but I just can’t justify paying that much for one wave maker when a Jebao does the job fairly well. I can’t blame them for wanting to make a nice profit.

Thank you
The product has 10 ingredients and they are all very expensive. Those complaining should make their own. There have been ZERO profits and all money goes to buy more ingredients to make more for others and to pay my employees.
I am the owner and founder of Deuk Spine Institute and don’t need the money.
BTW Radions cost you all $650+ but cost $50 to make. Do you complain?

 

[Jose Mayo]

Thank you for sharing. I did the same, made the discovery, tested and retested hundreds of times, Found that none of the current commercial dips etc worked to kill the parasite and had to experiment with new treatments until I discovered what worked. I never intended to sell my dip or in tank treatment , Prime Coral STOP RTN and Prevent RTN but there was such a demand and I couldn’t manufacture for free.
All money made is used for coral research and eventually to save the reefs dying from protozoan infection around the world.

Do your best ... time will bring the results.

Regards

 

[Prime Coral]

Im not sure which paper you put up - but there seems to be a fair bit of research on it:




https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/mec.13097
( all samples of the disease were specifically associated with the histophagous ciliate Philaster lucinda. From the pattern of disease progression and histopathology in relation to the selective elimination of microbial groups, we conclude that these ‘white’ diseases are a result of a nonspecific bacterial infection and a ‘secondary’ infection by the P. lucinda ciliate. Although we have not observed the initiation of infection, a nonspecific, multispecies bacterial infection appears to be a corequirement for WS lesion progression and we hypothesize that the bacterial infection occurs initially, weakening the defences of the host to predation by the ciliates.)

(Philaster lucinda shared 100% sequence similarity of 596 base pairs to the recently described ciliate (Morph 1) associated with WS in both the Great Barrier Reef and the Solomon Islands (Sweet & Bythell 2012). This species was absent in all four samples treated with metronidazole, even though the lesion continued to progress in those treatments. However, the advance rate of the lesion slowed from an average of 0.16 to 0.08 cm−3 per day. Furthermore, the exposed skeleton on corals treated with metronidazole was discoloured and the lesion boundary did not exhibit the sharp demarcation, as is characteristic of this disease (Sweet & Bythell 2012). This result suggested a different pathology occurred with the absence of this ciliate species.)

http://www.korallionlab.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/05/Sweet_and_Sere_2015.pdf
(Here we show that a wide variety of ciliates are associated with all nine coral diseases assessed. Many of these ciliates such as Trochilia petrani and Glauconema trihymene feed on the bacteria which are likely colonizing the bare skeleton exposed by the advancing disease lesion or the necrotic tissue itself. Others such as Pseudokeronopsis and Licnophora macfarlandi are common predators of other protozoans and will be attracted by the increase in other ciliate species to the lesion interface. However, a few ciliate species (namely Varistrombidium kielum, Philaster lucinda, Philaster guamense, a Euplotes sp., aTrachelotractus sp. and a Condylostoma sp.) appear to harbor symbiotic algae, potentially from the coral them- selves, a result which may indicate that they play some role in the disease pathology at the very least. Although, from this study alone we are not able to discern what roles any of these ciliates play in disease causation, the con- sistent presence of such communities with disease lesion interfaces warrants further investigation.)

Are you not seeing the words “appear” and “hypothesize”. These words scientifically mean “ we don’t know for sure but this is what we think may be going on”. My experimental proof allows me to say with 100% certainty Philaster is DEFINITELY the cause of RTN and not bacteria nor viruses nor fungus, etc

 

[Prime Coral]

My main issue is that I agree with the point that most/all tanks will have these bugs. I suppose there may be some folks that have never had a colony go RTN, but I am not among them. So if all RTN is bugs, and I’ve expetienced RTN, why didn’t I lose all my colonies? Just seems like there must be more at play here. I’m also VERY reluctant to use meds of any kind in my display. I always try to find biological solutions.

Why doesn’t every person in a classroom get sick when a kid shows up with a virus? Same reason, different susceptibility of each coral due to anatomical and physiological and immunological differences and luck etc. we are currently looking into this at Prime Coral labs. Thanks

 

[Prime Coral]

Acro keepers would be better served by looking for the actual cause of their acro deaths. I'm open-minded and generally optimistic about new products, but this just doesn't add up. I recently fought AEFW and defeated it with Purge from UWC. This theory of protozoans attacking weakened acros should have meant that my flatworm infested acros should have also been attacked and eaten by Philasters. But, nope. They recovered after the AEFW was eliminated. So then, what? My system doesn't have any Philasters in it? I have over 60 acros from multiple sources, including wild collected. Highly unlikely that I don't have Philasters if they are even remotely common since I have had acros RTN in the past.

Also, the Prime Coral website states that some acros will continue to RTN after treatment if they are too far gone. I'm paraphrasing, but essentially, your acros can still die after treatment which gives cover to the company if you don't see any positive results from using it. Your dying acros might keep dying and your healthy acros won't. Kind of like what happens even if you don't use the product...

Just like when we treat people with infections, sometimes people don’t make it because the infection is set in too deeply and patient is beyond point of no return. Doesn’t mean we shouldn’t treat people with antibiotics. Treatment is always better for an infection than not treating. Only very confused people refuse treatment for a life threatening infection! Don’t make that mistake with your corals. They have no chance without your intervention. Ignoring the truth is irresponsible. I am not here to promote sales of any product. I am here to raise awareness of the serious infection of coral that RTN and STN are. I am here to deliver you from darkness and ignorance!

 

[MnFish1]

Not the case here
Time to get educated
Read up on Koch’s postulates. The only way in the world that is accepted as scientific fact to prove a certain microorganism causes a disease is to prove all 4 of Koch’s postulates. That is the gold standard and that is exactly what I did last year. That is why it is NO longer speculation or theory, it has been proven. I am a doctor, scientist and biologist. These experiments prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the protozoan are the cause of coral RTN and STN. Read up for yourself
https://coralrtn.com/experimental-evidence/

And Im a microbiologist and immunologist. I read your website - including the part on Kochs postulates yesterday. I agree that you SAID you did it - but you didn't describe your methods as to how you did it i.e. how were you sure you had a pure 'culture' of Philaster. Did you pre-treat the corals you were trying to infect with antibiotics (i.e. to remove bacteria), etc etc etc. You did not give methods that I saw.

As a scientist - you of course realize that you have not 'proven' what you're saying. You have not published a peer reviewed article. You don't reference (that I saw) any of the references you used to create your methods for getting pure cultures of Philaster - and how you were certain only Philaster was there.

I've said it before, I'll say it again - you may be right, you may be partly right or not. But - and I understand why you might be a bit defensive - the way to sell a new product is to perhaps be a bit more friendly. At 90$ for 3 ounces (not quite sure how long each would last) - it seems expensive without more clear documentation.

BTW - why are the products not 'fish safe'....

 

[hart24601]

There is some interesting issues here and discussion but wow these turn nasty fast. I hope even if this isn’t the end all solution it can at least be a step or get people engaged.

I did get a giggle out of the qualifications bashing and even when said was a double major in biochemistry/cell biology with a second degree in chemistry and a medical degree with being a neurosurgeon it still wasn’t good enough. Tough crowd!

I can see why he would get upset, but I hope it doesn’t detract from the larger conversation.

 

[BigJohnny]

The proper studies were done to prove Philaster protozoan is the cause of coral RTN. Over 600 RTN ing corals have been studied to date and 100% have The RTN parasite Philaster as the cause.
In addition Prime Coral labs were the first to prove the definitive relationship between Philaster and Coral RTN. See here for more info
https://coralrtn.com/experimental-evidence/

Where are the actual studies documented? All I see are your findings with no evidence. What set up and procedures did you follow? What methods did you use to ensure no cross contamination took place? Did you catalogue, photograph, and track all 500+ specimens? How many different sources did they come from? How were they stored prior to testing? What "lab" did you do this in? Where is all that information?

Here is the biggest flaw in your findings:

"Dr. Deukmedjian received coral specimens from a wide variety of aquaculture facilities experiencing an outbreak of spontaneous tissue necrosis."

Findings

All corals demonstrating rapid tissue necrosis were infected with an infestation of philaster lucinda and philaster guamense without exception"

-This does not prove a causative relationship. You do not know if they were responsible for the rtn/stn on corals that were already rtn/stning. I know what your response will be and just because you moved the parasite to healthy corals and they started rtn/stning, doesnt mean the corals you pulled the parasites off of in the first place rtn/stnd because of them. It only proves that those parasites can cause stn/rtn. To say that they are the only cause, that's not science, that's an assumption. Also, why do you say ONLY cause in one line on the website and then LEADING cause on another? Which is it?

Also, were the "healthy corals" that you infected with the parasites from the same facilities that sent you rtn/stning corals? If not where were they from? Were they stored in the same system as any of the other corals at anytime? How were the parasites transferred from the infected stn/rtn corals to the infected corals? What methods did you use to prevent cross contamination with bacteria or other organisms?

And finally, what other bacteria/parasites did you identify on every single coral in the study and were there any others that were present on all samples?

I could go on and on. You have not presented enough evidence that the proper studies have been performed, and they certainly havent been peer reviewed.

 

[Prime Coral]

Dustin was just a guy working for a coral company when he figured out that MBE killed red bugs. He was taken seriously because everything that he demonstrated lined up with all hobbyists experiences and passed every test of muster. I don't recall that anybody ever asked him for any credentials, but he made no outlandish claims. The circumstance beget the request, in this case.

Maybe it is just me, but this does not pass hardly any tests of muster including common sense, actual hobbyist experiences and the feel of this thread os all wrong. How is that for science?

I wonder if I am funny or an idiot? Common sense tells me the latter. I have thick enough skin and don't get too upset with online posts, but to me, any insensitive commentary on this thread seems to be at a reasonably appropriate balance with the contradictory and unfounded claims. You cannot really clean up one without the other, IMO.

Here is my bottom line - if anybody wants to believe that these protozoans are an issue, then just use some Metro... it is cheap, safe and effective against them. Then, send a Thank You message to Jose.

Tha

Dustin was just a guy working for a coral company when he figured out that MBE killed red bugs. He was taken seriously because everything that he demonstrated lined up with all hobbyists experiences and passed every test of muster. I don't recall that anybody ever asked him for any credentials, but he made no outlandish claims. The circumstance beget the request, in this case.

Maybe it is just me, but this does not pass hardly any tests of muster including common sense, actual hobbyist experiences and the feel of this thread os all wrong. How is that for science?

I wonder if I am funny or an idiot? Common sense tells me the latter. I have thick enough skin and don't get too upset with online posts, but to me, any insensitive commentary on this thread seems to be at a reasonably appropriate balance with the contradictory and unfounded claims. You cannot really clean up one without the other, IMO.

Here is my bottom line - if anybody wants to believe that these protozoans are an issue, then just use some Metro... it is cheap, safe and effective against them. Then, send a Thank You message to Jose.

Again Metro doesn’t kill the Philaster protozoan. Do yourself a favor and get a microscope, culture the Philaster from an RTNing coral and add as much Metronidazole as you want. They won’t die.

 

[MnFish1]

You know he’s already spoke of this study in his videos and gave credit to the sources. I’ll link it for you.

There is a problem with this @Reefahholic In the abstract for this article - it states that there are MANY ciliates associated with White Band disease (RTN) - and that there is no evidence that Philaster/ciliates are causal in RTN - but it deserves further investigation. IN summary (contrary to Prime coral's statements) - that

1. Many other ciliates are associated with RTN (the information elsewhere in the thread states there is only 1 (Philaster)
2. Philaster and another ciliate have been found to contain zooxanthellae suggesting that they MIGHT be playing a role in the disease itself (rather than 'its a sure thing')
3. It clearly states that there are bacteria at the site of the injury (Also contrary to what Prime Coral says)
4. It clearly states that they were not able to discern the roles of the ciliates play in disease causation..

Here we show that a wide variety of ciliates are associated with all nine coral diseases assessed. Many of these ciliates such as Trochilia petrani and Glauconema trihymene feed on the bacteria which are likely colonizing the bare skeleton exposed by the advancing disease lesion or the necrotic tissue itself. Others such as Pseudokeronopsis and Licnophora macfarlandi are common predators of other protozoans and will be attracted by the increase in other ciliate species to the lesion interface. However, a few ciliate species (namely Varistrombidium kielum, Philaster lucinda, P. guamensis, a Euplotes sp., a Trachelotractus sp. and a Condylostoma sp.) appear to harbor symbiotic algae, potentially from the coral themselves, a result which may indicate they play some role in the disease pathology at the very least. Although, from this study alone we are not able to discern what roles any of these ciliates play in disease causation, the consistent presence of such communities with disease lesion interfaces warrants further investigation.

 

[Syntax1235]

Quick question regarding the dip: Do you have to use all of the dip at once? Can you use a 1/4 of the bottle and make a gallon? What is the shelf life of the dip once it is mixed in the bottle?

 

[Prime Coral]

Where are the actual studies documented? All I see are your findings with no evidence. What set up and procedures did you follow? What methods did you use to ensure no cross contamination took place? Did you catalogue, photograph, and track all 500+ specimens? How many different sources did they come from? How were they stored prior to testing? What "lab" did you do this in? Where is all that information?

Here is the biggest flaw in your findings:

"Dr. Deukmedjian received coral specimens from a wide variety of aquaculture facilities experiencing an outbreak of spontaneous tissue necrosis."

Findings

All corals demonstrating rapid tissue necrosis were infected with an infestation of philaster lucinda and philaster guamense without exception"

-This does not prove a causative relationship. You do not know if they were responsible for the rtn/stn on corals that were already rtn/stning. I know what your response will be and just because you moved the parasite to healthy corals and they started rtn/stning, doesnt mean the corals you pulled the parasites off of in the first place rtn/stnd because of them. It only proves that those parasites can cause stn/rtn. To say that they are the only cause, that's not science, that's an assumption. Also, why do you say ONLY cause in one line on the website and then LEADING cause on another? Which is it?

Also, were the "healthy corals" that you infected with the parasites from the same facilities that sent you rtn/stning corals? If not where were they from? Were they stored in the same system as any of the other corals at anytime? How were the parasites transferred from the infected stn/rtn corals to the infected corals? What methods did you use to prevent cross contamination with bacteria or other organisms?

And finally, what other bacteria/parasites did you identify on every single coral in the study and were there any others that were present on all samples?

I could go on and on. You have not presented enough evidence that the proper studies have been performed, and they certainly havent been peer reviewed.

There were no flaws in the study. I see you have a bone to pick with me. Maybe your comments stem from some anger you are misdirecting to me. Before you criticize the work I have done which took about 1,000 hours of my time, I recommend you perform your own experiments. I have outlined all you need and if you spend the time to learn how to use a microscope and go through the extensive training needed to run a lab and perform these types of experiments then you can share FACTS with us.
I don’t have to spend hours of my time wasted on useless banter with you. There will be non believers for now and that is something I cannot control. I have dealt with your type many times before and there is NO sense to it as you are unwilling to ever accept the truth from me but you will eventually understand the facts. Good luck.

 

[BigJohnny]

BigJohnny
Do you believe the earth is flat?

That's the best you could come up with? You think me not believing the parasite one man in his basement says is the sole cause (or sometimes just the leading cause) of all stn/rtn is the same as thinking the world is flat?

Your just digging your own grave bud keep it up lol.

 

[MnFish1]

Are you not seeing the words “appear” and “hypothesize”. These words scientifically mean “ we don’t know for sure but this is what we think may be going on”. My experimental proof allows me to say with 100% certainty Philaster is DEFINITELY the cause of RTN and not bacteria nor viruses nor fungus, etc

I disagree. Remember back when Linus Pauling was "sure that high dose vitamin C cured the common cold?"

With all due respect, you're not the only 'scientist' here. Your experimental proof has never been shown. I asked several posts ago to describe the methods you used to obtain a pure culture of Philaster - and then 'reinfect coral'. Unless you did something to prevent ANY OTHER KIND OF bacteria, virus, fungus, or ciliate - and did genetic testing on the ciliates both before and after there is no way to know if you fulfilled Kochs postulates. Id like to know how you obtained a 'pure culture' of Philaster - and how you proved that? Maybe you have done all these things - you just aren't stating that in your evidence.

As a scientist, It seems that the way to go about something like this -is to write an article and send it to a peer reviewed journal and let other experts in the field analyze your methods and conclusions. You certainly have the scientific background to do so - I have written several myself.

I'll ask again - why is the product not fish safe? How do you know its safe for every other oceanic life form? Lets say its 'a fact' that it kills Philaster and many other worms. What harm will that do to tank biodiversity/ etc?