Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[Prime Coral]

Sounds as if nobody ran across Docs thread on the SPS Facebook group, last I saw it was around 1400 posts but impossible to follow do to how Facebook isn’t designed well for comments flowing smoothly IMHO

I’ve used both the intank and the dip and had success along with failure but that’s for another thread.

I’ve been waiting for nearly a month for this to come to R2R so those with knowledge can share some wisdom.

Docs claim that the philaster and one other I can’t spell are the sole reason for ALL STN/RTN

Not some but all, 100% the sole culprit.

That’s were I need enlightenment, thats a tough pill to swallow and I followed the FB thread from the 1st post.

Like to hear some others with insight share some thoughts.

Hi Dr Deukmedjian here, there are now many others that have also found the RTN and STN parasites as the cause of coral tissue loss and have posted including Andre . This is real

 

[Prime Coral]

I thinks it’s very possible that the Philaster could be responsible for all RTN. BUT..........just not all STN. The slower tissue necrosis is a different story and one that I’m not as interested in. Not that they can’t, but I think that’s a different bug or issue all together. With RTN...I just can’t dream up anything else that can cause that kind of rapid damage. It’s about like pouring gas in a dry corn field and setting it on fire! It’s like a piranha frenzy or maggots consuming dead tissue. When they get the signal...it’s game over. What’s the signal??? Stress! How do they know?? A smell...a chemical...something!!! Something sends them the message and they all get it. Maybe God has designed them this way. How do geese know which way to fly south for the winter!? I don’t know!

So it’s an issue of speed for me which is why I’m looking mostly to study the Philaster parasites. I want to isolate a healthy Acro colony on video and then stress it with a huge ALK swing from 8.0 to 12. Then see if they come running. We need an underwater microscope! How could we make this happen??

This site has been up for a while and in it I clearly explain STN IS caused by different microscopic protozoan parasites. It’s all here for you to read about
https://coralrtn.com/

 

[Prime Coral]

When I read the many apoplectic and incredulous responses that 'oh my how could he say it's the cause of all RTN' I think some people are missing the interpretation potential of that statement. I do not have any communicae with the Dr. but from the bit that I've read so far there seems to be a disconnect in that many people are crediting param swings, light stress, and other events that could often precipitate a coral or multiple corals exhibiting RTN symptoms. Now, is the Dr. saying that RTN, as in the tissue loss itself, is caused by the philaster parasite regardless of the initial impetus for them to gain infection in the coral? Or is the contention that every RTN event is actually induced by an overabundance of these parasites in a given system with other tank issues/stressors being only coincidental and potentially concurrent rather than contributive? This is what I'd like to know.

I'm honestly shocked how dismissive many posters seem. It's not as if someone is pointing a gun at anyone's head to buy the stuff. Heck we spend boku bucks on all kinds of equipment and other tank stuff that may improve our reefs with no guarantees of success. I see this as something that may hold potential benefit. Let's wait til there's more data before we start saying this is snake oil. I for one don't feel we have enough info in either direction to make a solid determination in the matter.

Thank you!
Dr Deukmedjian here from Prime Coral.
I personally don’t care if no one buys the treatments. What matters is that everyone understands these microscopic protozoan are the cause of coral tissue necrosis and they are being spread fro tank to tank and coral to coral because they are an INFECTION. They are an infectious disease. We must treat RTN and STN as an infectious disease. Right now we are not and it is causing the spread to get worse. Literally it is like spreading AIDS virus and people need to understand that.

 

[wesman42]

I'm curious, have you run a controlled experiment to introduce the protozoa to a coral colony in an attempt to cause RTN?

 

[Prime Coral]

Money is definitely the primary motivation imo but let's assume you are right and im not and his sole motivation is to help people. That would mean that he's not smart enough to realize the obvious possibility that it's not the sole cause of stn/rtn and therefore loses credibility that way. Either way hes not credible. My b.s. meter shot through the roof when I heard his schtick on that video, and it's never failed me before. Watch it again and listen to all the assumptions and contradictions.

As expected hes not a biologist or anything related to the field, "spinal doctor" is pretty vague. That could mean chiropractor to orthopedist to neurosurgeon etc, all of which are unrelated to the field. Hes certainly not a research scientist and intentionally jumps to conclusions, therefore bypassing the scientific method, in order to try and sell his product.

Have you looked at the website? It's a joke. All caps everywhere, at one point claims all rtn/stn is caused by some parasite then goes on to say it's the "leading cause" on the same page. Well which is it dr. ? The only cause or the leading cause? Are you telling me you see no red flags?

Like I said, there is some truth to what he says and the product may work in some instances, but he has zero credibility in my book. I'm glad you think it may have worked for you though.

It's a shame he/prime coral is approaching it this way because they'd be much more respected and well received if they just said "look, we believe this is one cause of stn/rtn and we've developed a product to combat it. Here is our research".

Hello Dr Deukmedjian here. I am a biologist. Double major in biochemistry/ cell biology and second degree in chemistry from UCSD. Second I studied at Scripps Institute of Oceanography at UCSD. I am not a “spine doc” I am a Neurosurgeon thank you. And Frankly I cant stand haters.
The parasites are the cause of ALL coral RTN and STN unless you do something like boil your coral in lye where they won’t be. But don’t believe me and keep spreading the infection
https://coralrtn.com/

 

[Prime Coral]

Those products that MAY improve our reef get clowned by the masses and supported by the fanboys too. Any of the UWC stuff is like this. This seems like a pretty consistent response for this board.

To me, this is the definition of snake oil... claims that are too broad, no reasonable argument to be made that the scientific method was followed, for profit and statement inconsistencies. The only larger red flag is if there was "red flannel" in it.


It could work and it could end up being awesome. If it does, my guess is that it will be more because of luck than actual scientific R&D. I hope that it does.

 

[Prime Coral]

No. It was sarcasm. I certainly have them, along with probably thousands of other types of microorganisms that would cease an opportunity for a free meal. I have also not had a RTN event in a decade. There is a flaw with any study that shows that these organisms killed healthy coral in this "study" since it does not happen in most tanks.

No flaw. Real science. If you haven’t had an RTN or STN event then you don’t have them simple. If they are in your tank they will infect your coral and you will see RTN or STN for sure. Not everyone has them. Not everyone has herpes

 

[Prime Coral]

This guy doesn’t need anybody’s money. He made a discovery...tested it...and now he’s selling his products. Smart man!

Good for him. Nobody has to buy anything. Don’t buy it if you do not think it works. It’s that simple. Sit back and let those of us who live dangerously and aren’t scared- test and do your dirty work. Then after all the smoke clears you’ll know w/o a doubt if it’s something that you'll be interested in.

Don’t bash the guy. That’s ridiculous. Let’s be adults here. Friendly debate w/o the personal attacks would be nice. Come on guys...we’re all reefers! Reefers unite!

Thanks again
You are correct. I don’t need anyone’s money and only charge because I have to pay to make the Prime Coral products. I don’t have a charity to be able to pay for everyone to get the treatments but if anyone wants to donate

 

[Prime Coral]

I lost a 8" acropora aculeus colony yesterday that went from bright neon green (even out of blue lights) to this in a matter of 10 hours. I never seen one go so quick.

which caused my 5" tenuis to start to go as well.

If its parasites that are doing this, where do they go after they completely consume a coral?

It is the RTN parasites and they go into your water column to infect more coral

 

[Prime Coral]

Dang man, sorry to hear this. If you have that coral isolatated in water, you can send me a sample of that water and I’ll test it. I’ll post a video here. PM me if you’re interested.

Where do these parasites go? Who really knows.

I think they remain in the tank and feed on detritus and uneaten food. They’re probably in the rocks, sump, sand, etc. Just like Uronema, I believe they’re opportunistic and do not require a host. There’s probably thousands in all of our tanks.

They will infect more corals. They only eat coral tissue and zooxanthella. Some won’t find another host and they will die but judging the size of the acros that RTNd I’d say about 100,000 Philaster just entered your tank water column and are looking for the next coral meal

 

[Prime Coral]

What's ridiculous is how he is trying to take advantage of people for money by misrepresenting his "discovery".

 

[Prime Coral]

Working very well against whatevers in that video, sure, maybe.

Hey @Reefahholic

Do you have any affiliation with this product or company?

BigJohnny
Do you believe the earth is flat?

 

[Prime Coral]

This was my initial thought. There has to some affiliation to be pushing this so hard without any skepticism whatsoever.

I am the owner of the company. He has no affiliation. He is just smart enough to see the truth.

 

[Prime Coral]

I'm curious, have you run a controlled experiment to introduce the protozoa to a coral colony in an attempt to cause RTN?

Yes
Done last year
Here https://coralrtn.com/experimental-evidence/

 

[rockskimmerflow]

Thank you!
Dr Deukmedjian here from Prime Coral.
I personally don’t care if no one buys the treatments. What matters is that everyone understands these microscopic protozoan are the cause of coral tissue necrosis and they are being spread fro tank to tank and coral to coral because they are an INFECTION. They are an infectious disease. We must treat RTN and STN as an infectious disease. Right now we are not and it is causing the spread to get worse. Literally it is like spreading AIDS virus and people need to understand that.

Thank you for the reply. Now, here is another question. Is there any evidence that the parasites can be controlled or made non-malignant once they are present in a system. I bring in wild SPS and LPS frequently and follow a dipping protocol, plus quarantine in a 'dirty' holding system. Now, the dips I currently use (iodine and Revive) may not kill these protozoan so I could have unwittingly spread these parasites into the many client reef aquariums I manage. A little while ago I suffered a critically low iodine incident in my main system which resulted in the rapid near loss of a few colonies of LPS and SPS to an apparent brown jelly infection, followed by their stabilization and recovery once the iodine deficiency was corrected. I suffered another brown jelly event a couple months later that took out a large healthy purple and green lobo as well as a small tenuis colony in a matter of hours. Only change I had made prior to this was I put the ozone generator one a timer to cycle it on and off during the day and had changed one of the two 55W UVs on the system to run only at night. I have since reversed this change and there has been no further brown jelly presence observed in the past few weeks. Could I possibly have been suppressing the protozoa that are certainly in the system by running ozone 24/7 and 110W of UV at a flow rate of about 700gph in a 420gallon total volume system?

 

[MnFish1]

So if you haven't heard...Prime Coral has some impressive videos showing a parasite that's responsible for RTN and others that might be responsible for STN. This guy is from Florida and his name is Dr. Ara Deukmedjian. This Philaster parasite that he's captured on video eating acros sure fits the description of being the RTN culprit for all these years. This thing is very aerodynamic, extremely fast, and the numbers found on the Acropora frags and colonies are staggering. I've owned several microscopes and have never seen anything like it. Maybe I was looking in the wrong places! In his multiple videos, they've literally been caught with their hands in the cookie jar- if you will. Yep...munching away on beautiful acropora colonies, chalices, and other SPS. All of them full of zooxanthellae too! I'll post a video below, but it's very impressive. We'll get into more details later.

There's also a study back from 2014 that links Ciliate communities to coral disease. Yes ICH is one of them! I found this very interesting. Make sure you watch that video as well.

2014 Study found here:
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1385110115300095

In Houston...we're already hot on the trail doing research and testing. Dr. Deukmedjian does sell a product that is used as a dip. He also has another for in-tank treatment. This has lead many people to become very skeptical, but after you watch the video evidence of these parasites dying, you start to think wow! Trust me though...these videos are incredible! They speak for themselves. Anyway, the in-tank treatment is questionable with fish, but the dip is already working for several people. Psxerholic has been testing and I'm testing now too. Psx has already reported success with his fish. I think he mentioned he did loose one. I'm not sure if that was due to the treatment or what.?

Many more questions to be asked and nobody has all the answers yet which is why we're all working hard to find out more details. I'll link a video below that highlights the best two videos. There's many more on his channel. See the description section on my video for all the information about the products and join us in our search for all the answers and help test with us.

Interesting video. Too bad he didnt:

1. Take a piece of healthy coral and leave it overnight - and see 'what was in the water'.
2. Explain what happens when one piece of coral 'dies' - where do those thousands of parasites go - do they just die off?
3. Explain why if there are only 2 'kinds' of this parasite (per the video) - and supposedly they are somewhat specific to certain kinds of coral (per the video) why almost every kind of coral can 'RTN' (unless there are multiple causes for RTN).
4. Explain that if temp changes, alkalinity changes, etc do NOT cause RTN - why do so many corals seem to RTN after sudden changes?

I may have misunderstood the video - but I don't see how Koch's postulates have been fulfilled.

1. The disease causing agent should be found in diseased organisms, but not healthy organisms.
2. A scientist can isolate the disease causing agent from a sick animal and grow it in culture in a lab.
3. The disease causing agent can be isolated from culture and reinfect a healthy organism, producing similar symptoms.
4. Lastly, the same disease causing agent should be able to be isolated from the organism used in part 3.

IMHO ( and its just my opinion) - these may be a cause of 'RTN' - Or they may just be something that is attracted to dying coral (which may be dying/injured for many reasons).

 

[jda]

No flaw. Real science. If you haven’t had an RTN or STN event then you don’t have them simple. If they are in your tank they will infect your coral and you will see RTN or STN for sure. Not everyone has them. Not everyone has herpes

The parasites are the cause of ALL coral RTN and STN...

This is where the non-sequitor nature of all of these claims come in. EVERYBODY has had a coral STN or RTN on them. Everybody. ...so if the ONLY cause were these protozoans and the protozoans will infect all coral, then why have the rest not STN or RTN.

I lost a huge Pearlberry to STN about 8 years ago. Same tank, never lost another coral since. I saved a few frags and grew it back. ...so at least one, or the other, of these statements is not correct.

 

[MnFish1]

I believe that they’re opportunistic. Just like Uronema. When the coral has a stress event...I think it triggers them with some sort of signal. Maybe because the coral releases a chemical, smell, etc. Then the swarm comes in. Who knows? All I know is that there’s several videos and they’re present munching Acro tissue every single time.

This doesnt make sense though. A parasite needs 'a host'. What is the host for this parasite? Are you saying its living on healthy coral to start with and then rapidly multiplies?

 

[Instigate]

BigJohnny
Do you believe the earth is flat?

I am the owner of the company. He has no affiliation. He is just smart enough to see the truth.

Thinly veiled insults will definitely get people to believe you, keep doing that...

... they may just be something that is attracted to dying coral (which may be dying/injured for many reasons).

This is what I've been wondering.

 

[Jose Mayo]

In order to collaborate, the parasite Philaster lucinda is known to be sensitive to metronidazole in low concentration, with MIC (minimum inhibitory concentration) of the order of 1 mg / liter administered 12/12 hours for 6 days. Metronidazole is safe for fish, corals, crustaceans and the biological filter (at this concentration and up to 10 times higher), not reaching the nitrogen cycle and can be administered directly in the display tank without major consequences. However ... well-conducted eradication experiments of the parasite Philaster lucinda failed to halt the progression of RTN in corals, as demonstrated in the topic below:

Probable new approach in STN syndrome?

Regards