Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

PSXerholic · Mar 19, 2019

Todays update after setting up a hospital tank(s) yesterday.
Infected corals did not make it very far.
The antibiotics itself are not stopping TN as fast as needed.
Also the stress contributes probably not in the corals favor.

I will go back to the protocol I use before which I was able to save most all corals at least until they did get re-infected, some of these are happy as they can be.
So I will do next the following considering hospitalization.

The new protocol will be:
Take frags or corals and dip them in PC RTN Stop.
Wait 2 hours and keep the corals in Tank water separate in a bag.
Performing another PC RTN Stop dip.
Place again for 30 minutes in tank water.
Then I will put them into the hospital tank with 100mg/L Antibiotics and take it from there.

Will see how that turns out!

My Gold Wall Hammer coral that did also got infected I dipped daily for 3 days and the infection stopped as far it looked yesterday, no more brown slime or tissue loss to see with the Hydrogen peroxide dip.

MnFish1 · Mar 19, 2019

PSXerholic said:
Todays update after setting up a hospital tank(s) yesterday.
Infected corals did not make it very far.
The antibiotics itself are not stopping TN as fast as needed.
Also the stress contributes probably not in the corals favor.

I will go back to the protocol I use before which I was able to save most all corals at least until they did get re-infected, some of these are happy as they can be.
So I will do next the following considering hospitalization.

The new protocol will be:
Take frags or corals and dip them in PC RTN Stop.
Wait 2 hours and keep the corals in Tank water separate in a bag.
Performing another PC RTN Stop dip.
Place again for 30 minutes in tank water.
Then I will put them into the hospital tank with 100mg/L Antibiotics and take it from there.

Will see how that turns out!

My Gold Wall Hammer coral that did also got infected I dipped daily for 3 days and the infection stopped as far it looked yesterday, no more brown slime or tissue loss to see with the Hydrogen peroxide dip.

What antibiotics and what concentration did you use

PSXerholic · Mar 19, 2019

MnFish1 said:
What antibiotics and what concentration did you use

One each with 100mg\L
Amp and amox

PSXerholic · Mar 19, 2019

PSXerholic said:
One each with 100mg\L
Amp and amox

Did setup 2 separate tanks

robert · Mar 19, 2019

Interesting thread...
Couple of random thoughts...

The association of protozoa/ciliates with RTN/brown jelly disease has been around a long time - since 2001 or so.
Chloramphenicol was/is very effective at stopping the progression. I've used it numerous times and found it effective. Its a bacterial-static and stops ciliates through mitochondrial protein synthesis disruption. Is anyone else using this anymore? - I still keep some around.

Random thought - could the ciliates be acting as a vector for the primary pathogen - a bacteria - that might satisfy all observations.

Final thought - these things are relatively big and within the reach of mechanical filtration. (I've harped on the necessity of pathogenic dilution in our tanks before - are our tank configurations amplifying the ciliate/bacterial in our confined systems?

MnFish1 · Mar 19, 2019

PSXerholic said:
Todays update after setting up a hospital tank(s) yesterday.
Infected corals did not make it very far.
The antibiotics itself are not stopping TN as fast as needed.
Also the stress contributes probably not in the corals favor.

I will go back to the protocol I use before which I was able to save most all corals at least until they did get re-infected, some of these are happy as they can be.
So I will do next the following considering hospitalization.

The new protocol will be:
Take frags or corals and dip them in PC RTN Stop.
Wait 2 hours and keep the corals in Tank water separate in a bag.
Performing another PC RTN Stop dip.
Place again for 30 minutes in tank water.
Then I will put them into the hospital tank with 100mg/L Antibiotics and take it from there.

Will see how that turns out!

My Gold Wall Hammer coral that did also got infected I dipped daily for 3 days and the infection stopped as far it looked yesterday, no more brown slime or tissue loss to see with the Hydrogen peroxide dip.

BTW - I might have continued to do what they did in the original experiment - i.e. dosing 100 mg/l twice per day - with a water change - for 6 days.

PSXerholic · Mar 19, 2019

MnFish1 said:
BTW - I might have continued to do what they did in the original experiment - i.e. dosing 100 mg/l twice per day - with a water change - for 6 days.

I get that. And I do the 100mg/L with the Water changes as well.

Got so mad when I went for lunch and most frags had barely any tissue left.
Lost another 2 frags of literally unique corals I was able to rescue from the tank break 2 years back and now these are gone forever......... :-(

The corals seem not to hold in hospitalization with just the antibiotics.
Spent the entire night on the microscope trying to identify and get a better picture of the tiny bacteria in the coral after smushing it under 2500x and it's hard to see the shape. Like little dots moving fast and no way to identify a good shape. Was hoping to find Vibrio or anything.

So the remaining corals at lunch I dipped in RTN STOP twice and put them in fresh saltwater again in the hospital tank with 100mg/L Antibiotics.

On the display tank, I cut yesterday night as well some infected pieces off and paying a lot of attention to PH and ALK at the moment since the alk consumptions went down with all the treatment attempts.
Also applied since 2 days UV and Ozone in small amounts. And then I filled up the entire Vibe 4L with fresh pelletized activated carbon since the water is/was for my taste still with a haze in the water. I wish I could at least stop new infections in the display tank. At lunchtime I observed that 2 coral colonies that developed a infected area yesterday night, did not develop further! Also the cuts I did in the night do not show any progressed STN. So I'm hopeful. Feel like there is something in the tank that is fueling the pathogens :-(

Reefahholic · Mar 19, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Just a suggestion - I would use the same protocol as in the study - with the ampicillin. 100mg/l - I think for 6 days - with water changes 2/day...

Antibiotics are usually ran for about 7 days “minimal” with anemones and 10 days for fish. I usually do about 10 days for everything now. Most human prescriptions are usually written for about 10 days.

I have done 7 days on anemones over 100x and it works about 75% of the time if the anemone hasn’t been treated previously. I’ve even stopped at 5 days as long as there was no deflation for at least 2 days. Don’t recommend 5 days though. 7-10 is best.

Reefahholic · Mar 19, 2019

Well...as many of you know I backed the doctor from the beginning. For me...the Philaster appeared more than capable of wrecking a large acropora colony within 24 hours or less.

However, then we started to dig into all the studies. Some of these studies were performed using transmission electron microscopy. Transmission electron microscopes are capable of imaging at a significantly higher resolution than light microscopes. This enables the instrument to capture fine detail...even as small as a single column of atoms, which is thousands of times smaller than a resolvable object seen in the light microscope which is what the doctor is using.

After learning about this, looking at the latest studies, receiving feedback from several people, and watching the doctor run from tough questions- I began to rethink my position. I’ve observed a lot of fish die from his product and every report I received stated that the product did not stop RTN. Reef Junkie was the only Reefer that reported his RTN stopped and had not progressed for 18 days at the time of his thread reply. This could have been a coincidence and I suspect it was given all the other reports. He also reported loosing 1/2 his fish during that treatment like many of the others.

I will continue to remain skeptical until I see “real evidence” that the product is indeed working. I want to see dated pictures of corals or detailed Vlogs. These Vlogs should be very easy to make since the doctor claims 99% eradication with his formula and also claims that the Philaster Lucinda is the “only cause” of RTN.

Bottom line: The product is not working now and hasn’t been. The doctor is the only one making these claims.

If anybody has evidence (Pics or Vlogs) of before and after the treatments...please post up or PM me.

MnFish1 · Mar 19, 2019

Reefahholic said:
Antibiotics are usually ran for about 7 days “minimal” with anemones and 10 days for fish. I usually do about 10 days for everything now. Most human prescriptions are usually written for about 10 days.

I have done 7 days on anemones over 100x and it works about 75% of the time if the anemone hasn’t been treated previously. I’ve even stopped at 5 days as long as there was no deflation for at least 2 days. Don’t recommend 5 days though. 7-10 is best.

Yes - I recommended what was used in Sweet's study. (I think)

MnFish1 · Mar 19, 2019

Reefahholic said:
Antibiotics are usually ran for about 7 days “minimal” with anemones and 10 days for fish. I usually do about 10 days for everything now. Most human prescriptions are usually written for about 10 days.

I have done 7 days on anemones over 100x and it works about 75% of the time if the anemone hasn’t been treated previously. I’ve even stopped at 5 days as long as there was no deflation for at least 2 days. Don’t recommend 5 days though. 7-10 is best.

This is from the study:
Two treatments, ampicillin and metronidazole, were
administered twice daily at 10:00 and 16:00 for 6 days
until the end of the experiment. Paromomycin sulfate,
in contrast, was applied only twice on the first day due
to the cost of this antibiotic.

Reefahholic · Mar 19, 2019

Let’s say he’s right about these Philaster’s and they aren’t scavengers. Let’s say they’re primary parasites. Let’s also say he’s right about his claims and his product does indeed eradicate 99% of these parasites.

Now...let’s switch gears and think about ICH or Velvet. All it takes is one single parasite to enter a system and they will multiply like mice. You can’t really eradicate them in a reef because all the medications kill corals. To rid a tank completely from ICH you must go fallow (no fish/ host) for several weeks. Once the tank is clean you must QT everything wet coming in to prevent future infections.

Now, just like ICH...we know most of these other parasites including the Philaster will multiply very rapidly. So if you only kill 99% and leave one...it will begin to multiple and create hundreds or thousands more. So even if this in-tank treatment is proven to actually work later down the road, it will likely take multiple treatments to continuously keep the numbers down. This will cost thousands at his prices. Like ICH...Philaster will probably be extremely difficult to keep out of the system or 100% eradicate them.

So at best we’d probably only be able to control them and continually buy buy buy more of his very expensive dip and in-tank treatments.

Ohh...and like ICH....his medication will probably not affect them if they are shielded by the coral skeleton. We know they were found “internally” as well.

Just some thoughts...

MnFish1 · Mar 19, 2019

Reefahholic said:
Let’s say he’s right about these Philaster’s and they aren’t scavengers. Let’s say they’re primary parasites. Let’s also say he’s right about his claims and his product does indeed eradicate 99% of these parasites.

Now...let’s switch gears and think about ICH or Velvet. All it takes is one single parasite to enter a system and they will multiply like mice. You can’t really eradicate them in a reef because all the medications kill corals. To rid a tank completely from ICH you must go fallow (no fish/ host) for several weeks. Once the tank is clean you must QT everything wet coming in to prevent future infections.

Now, just like ICH...we know most of these other parasites including the Philaster will multiply very rapidly. So if you only kill 99% and leave one...it will begin to multiple and create hundreds or thousands more. So even if this in-tank treatment is proven to actually work later down the road, it will likely take multiple treatments to continuously keep the numbers down. This will cost thousands at his prices. Like ICH...Philaster will probably be extremely difficult to keep out of the system or 100% eradicate them.

So at best we’d probably only be able to control them and continually buy buy buy more of his very expensive dip and in-tank treatments.

Ohh...and like ICH....his medication will probably not affect them if they are shielded by the coral skeleton. We know they were found “internally” as well.

Just some thoughts...

Its the analogy as mentioned previously - if a person walks up on 10 dead deer in the woods - and all the deer have maggots eating the flesh - it does not mean that removing the maggots will prevent the death of the deer. The role of ciliates in these types of diseases has been well known for some time - and there is still debate as to whether they are primary or secondary. I know some people want to know about ciliates - I mostly want to know how Prime works against RTN itself. Dr. D (I believe) stated it cured 80% of infections. (I may be remembering incorrectly)

Reefahholic · Mar 19, 2019

Does anybody have reports of success? Or anybody know somebody that it’s working for? Please post here.

PSXerholic · Mar 20, 2019

Quick update:
Dipping in PC RTN Stop even did not show any effects prior hospitalization :-(
Everything dies within hours.

It's been really bad yesterday so I decided late evening to use "my last resort" and that at full throttle ...............

Status update this evening likely.........

MnFish1 · Mar 20, 2019

Can you show some pictures of your tank - and whats going on exactly?

MnFish1 · Mar 20, 2019

PSXerholic said:
Quick update:
Dipping in PC RTN Stop even did not show any effects prior hospitalization :-(
Everything dies within hours.

It's been really bad yesterday so I decided late evening to use "my last resort" and that at full throttle ...............

Status update this evening likely.........

I appreciate your updates - but just like many have said - its so hard to tell 'why' its not working for you. It could be the product doesn't work - or it could be something you are doing. But. its nice to at least have some information. It would be nice if the product manufacturer gave some information (in their experience) as to why the product has failed (in their testing) - as it might help others using the product.

PSXerholic · Mar 20, 2019

MnFish1 said:
Can you show some pictures of your tank - and whats going on exactly?

Will try to do so with some close ups. Basically spreading infections and STN as well as RTN appear within hours or simply progressing slowly.
Certain Birdsnests are going from colony to frag size within 2-3 hours.

MnFish1 said:
I appreciate your updates - but just like many have said - its so hard to tell 'why' its not working for you. It could be the product doesn't work - or it could be something you are doing. But. its nice to at least have some information. It would be nice if the product manufacturer gave some information (in their experience) as to why the product has failed (in their testing) - as it might help others using the product.

Well in the beginning when I had just one Coral stating to show a STN line few weeks ago it all started. Fast forward, jumped on the wagon of ciliates and did the PC products with some first good results and followed tank treatments, killed fish, did elevated concentrations and ciliates did not eradicated sufficiently. Started to believe again more the real reason that it's bacteria and found this hidden microbe, did all sort of stuff while STN/RTN became worse from day to day and if I do not do anything quickly I will for sure loose the entire tank.

So yesterday was the worse day and it was very frustrating and exhausting.
Then I decided to use the Ozone full throttle!
I believe there is a pathogenic bacteria outbreak caused by something that fuels the pathogens.
Will know more when I get back home this evening.

MnFish1 · Mar 20, 2019

PSXerholic said:
Will try to do so with some close ups. Basically spreading infections and STN as well as RTN appear within hours or simply progressing slowly.
Certain Birdsnests are going from colony to frag size within 2-3 hours.

Well in the beginning when I had just one Coral stating to show a STN line few weeks ago it all started. Fast forward, jumped on the wagon of ciliates and did the PC products with some first good results and followed tank treatments, killed fish, did elevated concentrations and ciliates did not eradicated sufficiently. Started to believe again more the real reason that it's bacteria and found this hidden microbe, did all sort of stuff while STN/RTN became worse from day to day and if I do not do anything quickly I will for sure loose the entire tank.

So yesterday was the worse day and it was very frustrating and exhausting.
Then I decided to use the Ozone full throttle!
I believe there is a pathogenic bacteria outbreak caused by something that fuels the pathogens.
Will know more when I get back home this evening.