Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[Jose Mayo]

This question is not answered with animations, or narratives. What is required is evidence, whether scientifically rigorous or merely empirical, that the treatment serves the purpose for which it is intended.

Other than that, we only have fantasies.

The questions to ask have already been asked.

Who have the answers?

 

[Reefahholic]

This question is not answered with animations, or narratives. What is required is evidence, whether scientifically rigorous or merely empirical, that the treatment serves the purpose for which it is intended.

Other than that, we only have fantasies.

The questions to ask have already been asked.

Who have the answers?

That is exactly why I changed my position. He continues to strut along "promoting his product" and runs from all the evidence that contradicts his claims. Personally, I feel like the only agenda here is to make money. I did not feel this way in the beginning, but it's becoming quite clear now.

 

[jda]

The video is on YouTube... you can leave a comment. ...or leave one under mine.

 

[crusso1993]

The video is on YouTube... you can leave a comment. ...or leave one under mine.

I am a bit surprised that no one has been leaving more comments (questions) on his YouTube videos.

 

[jda]

Once there is a few, more will come. I got it started.

Everybody wants to be warned and gets mad when nobody looked out for them, but these same people do not want to rock the boat and leave a review or post with a hard truth about a product when it is negative.... but they will crush a restaurant or other small business for something that matters not. It seems that the only criticism that people like to levy is the inconsequential. As you have no doubt seen, I do not shy away from such things, but you should see some of the PMs that I get from people who think that I am a troll and clown for having an opinion and stuff... I got a few PMs from torqued people just from my posts on this thread alone. /rant

 

[AcroNem]

I went ahead and added a comment of my own. Hopefully more see through all this

 

[Instigate]

Once there is a few, more will come. I got it started.

Everybody wants to be warned and gets mad when nobody looked out for them, but these same people do not want to rock the boat and leave a review or post with a hard truth about a product when it is negative.... but they will crush a restaurant or other small business for something that matters not. It seems that the only criticism that people like to levy is the inconsequential. As you have no doubt seen, I do not shy away from such things, but you should see some of the PMs that I get from people who think that I am a troll and clown for having an opinion and stuff... I got a few PMs from torqued people just from my posts on this thread alone. /rant

He deleted and re-uploaded it:

 

[AcroNem]

He deleted and re-uploaded it:

Well, I guess he's shown even more of his true self hasn't he?

 

[jda]

Report it as misleading. I just did. I have no issue with the video staying out there, but so should the commentary.

 

[sde1500]

He shared on it the sponsor forum here as well...

 

[MnFish1]

Without commenting on the plusses or minuses of the theory - its a free country - I think he should be able to post his videos as he sees fit. My comment is I think videos are horrible ways to communicate most things (just my opinion). IMHO - anyone posting a theory should be able to handle the praise and criticism of those theories.

 

[MnFish1]

SOrry - there are so many threads with this video - I thought this was a new one lol. SO I deleted my basically repeated post

 

[PSXerholic]

It is good to hear that the RTN cycle is in remission.

Here is the million dollar question. Did the progression of RTN stop because?

1. Solely based on the addition of O3, the use of excessive carbon or UV?
2. Combination of those 3 things?
   
3. The addition of the antibiotics and prime or either one or the other?
4. The combination of everything that you have done or a couple of the things in tandem?
5. Because the disease has naturally reached its conclusion
6. Because of whatever caused it to start in the beginning has been fixed inadvertently.
7. A combination or none of what you have done?

Unfortunately because you did so much we will never know. Unless of course you were prepared to begin the experiment all over again and leave out certain steps.

Ok, I think the reason RTN/STN did reduce is based on a biological battle going on in the tank.
I could stop the STN for a day or two then it popped up again slightly.

So with the coincidental help from Kryzstof Tryc which helped me in the past concerning Biopellets we were discussing the previous bio pellets we both used that were discontinued and he made me aware of the fact the pellets are now been made under a different name and shape (Long story, the company split up). So I got these particular pellets out of Europe and started using them yesterday.
In the past they seems to have a very very positive effect on the bacterial biology and coral health!
One thing I noticed overnight already since yesterday with nothing else changing, is that the STN came to a stop again and the water column is much cleaner now! The haze is almost gone in the water indicating less bacteria count in the water. I felt that in the last weeks and months that the haze in the water had a very negative effect on the tank hence I was looking for a better way to deal with nutrient reduction without high bacterial count in the water which seemed to contribute to health and colors in the tank. But while the tank was developing and growing, the bioload became more since I started the tank and after a while the haze in the water started to appear at some point again after I could not replenish the pellets anymore.
Seeing this change overnight by using the pellets, already supports this theory once again.

So I use UV, Ozone, Activated carbon and now the pellets. Also supplement daily 20ml of Eco-Balance per 100G tank water. Just to support the bacteria strain diversity.

So in general, the bacterial count in the water indicates good and bad guys, it's important in my opinion to find the right setup and method to run the tank with pristine water. Yellow greenish water is not that bad, as long it's crisp, means barely any bacteria in the water column.
I always supported the fact that too much carbohydrates (depending on the type of carbohydrates) that fuel the good bacteria will may also fuel the pathogenic bacteria.

or random stoppage...

Likely not, but less bioload now due to losses ;-)
See above.

Unfortunately this thread has created way more questions than it has answered.
Just wondering out loud again:

• Is O3 effective at reducing the mobile pathogen(s)?

Actually not, it breaks down larger organics into smaller organics and makes them available for more bacteria strains, hence increased strains of bacteria which may tackle the decomposition of organics more effective, and also reduces the toxins and increases light penetrations which also helps in certain cases the metabolism and repair function of corals and it's tissue.

• Has anyone had RTN on multiple coral colonies while employing O3?

Me

• If O3 is effective at reducing the mobile pathogen(s) would a Sochting Oxydator help?

O3 does not kill pathogens and apparently deactivates some bacteria.

• What about UV?

UV helps but can deactivate as well as kill which depends on the UV light and reaction time.

Just wondering out loud again:

• Is O3 effective at reducing the mobile pathogen(s)?

Actually not, it breaks down larger organics into smaller organics and makes them available for more bacteria strains, hence increased strains of bacteria which may tackle the decomposition of organics more effective, and also reduces the toxins and increases light penetrations which also helps in certain cases the metabolism and repair function of corals and it's tissue.

• Has anyone had RTN on multiple coral colonies while employing O3?

Me

• If O3 is effective at reducing the mobile pathogen(s) would a Sochting Oxydator help?

O3 does not kill pathogens and apparently deactivates some bacteria.

• What about UV?

UV helps but can deactivate as well as kill which depends on the UV light and reaction time.

H2O2 also kills bacteria - so I don't think it helps decide what is causing RTN. It will also help 'clean away' dead tissue.

Very true!!! I saw it under the microscope. The cleanup works very good if you lay corals in tankwater for an hour or two after the dip.

 

[Reefahholic]

He deleted and re-uploaded it:

Yeah I saw that.

 

[Instigate]

Yeah I saw that.

And now comments are disabled.

 

[MnFish1]

And now comments are disabled.

its not like there is some conspiracy lol

@Prime Coral has a theory - and his theory has some validity (no im not paid by either side). IMHO - people that automatically say 'its a scam' are as bad as people that say 'its a fact'. In every thread - seems to me - there should be back and forth - i.e. discussion about the merits. Though I disagree with some of the degree whereby @Prime Coral states without equivocation that he is correct - He may very well be correct. It says so in the scientific papers I have read. (though the evidence currently suggests that may not be the case).

The goal is a solution to RTN - its not attacking the people that are trying to help - nor the people that question the people trying to help. Thats how things advance. IMHO. Respectfully to both sides.

 

[Instigate]

its not like there is some conspiracy lol

@Prime Coral has a theory - and his theory has some validity (no im not paid by either side). IMHO - people that automatically say 'its a scam' are as bad as people that say 'its a fact'. In every thread - seems to me - there should be back and forth - i.e. discussion about the merits. Though I disagree with some of the degree whereby @Prime Coral states without equivocation that he is correct - He may very well be correct. It says so in the scientific papers I have read. (though the evidence currently suggests that may not be the case).

The goal is a solution to RTN - its not attacking the people that are trying to help - nor the people that question the people trying to help. Thats how things advance. IMHO. Respectfully to both sides.

I never made any comment about a "conspiracy", just laughing at the way he continues to conduct himself. It's absurd imo.

 

[Reefahholic]

its not like there is some conspiracy lol

@Prime Coral has a theory - and his theory has some validity (no im not paid by either side). IMHO - people that automatically say 'its a scam' are as bad as people that say 'its a fact'. In every thread - seems to me - there should be back and forth - i.e. discussion about the merits. Though I disagree with some of the degree whereby @Prime Coral states without equivocation that he is correct - He may very well be correct. It says so in the scientific papers I have read. (though the evidence currently suggests that may not be the case).

The goal is a solution to RTN - its not attacking the people that are trying to help - nor the people that question the people trying to help. Thats how things advance. IMHO. Respectfully to both sides.

I agree!

What got me a little frustrated was when he side-stepped all difficult questions and kept plugging away on YouTube and Facebook presenting his claims as “absolute facts.” If he’s that confident and believes in his work then have it peer reviewed. Get a legit paper published. At the very least... confront everybody’s questions head on and avoid attacking people because they’re skeptical. He’s already misidentified Uronema which is observed under light magnification compared to the thousands of bacteria species out there. If he was wrong about that, I honestly have no faith in him about anything else. The light microscope he’s using is a toy compared to what the real scientists are using, but they don’t boast that their studies are absolute fact. How can one be so convinced when he can only see half of the microorganisms that are actually there? You can not be sure if you do not have the ability to see everything present. Pieces of the puzzle are missing. Light microscopes have low magnification usually about 500x to 1,500x with a resolving power of (0.25um to 0.3um). An electron microscope has a magnification of up to 1,000,000x with a resolving power of (0.001um). That’s a huge difference.

 

[MnFish1]

I agree!

What got me a little frustrated was when he side-stepped all difficult questions and kept plugging away on YouTube and Facebook presenting his claims as “absolute facts.” If he’s that confident and believes in his work then have it peer reviewed. Get a legit paper published. At the very least... confront everybody’s questions head on and avoid attacking people because they’re skeptical. He’s already misidentified Uronema which is observed under light magnification compared to the thousands of bacteria species out there. If he was wrong about that, I honestly have no faith in him about anything else. The light microscope he’s using is a toy compared to what the real scientists are using, but they don’t boast that their studies are absolute fact. How can one be so convinced when he can only see half of the microorganisms that are actually there? You can not be sure if you do not have the ability to see everything present. Pieces of the puzzle are missing. Light microscopes have low magnification usually about 500x to 1,500x with a resolving power of (0.25um to 0.3um). An electron microscope has a magnification of up to 1,000,000x with a resolving power of (0.001um). That’s a huge difference.

at the risk of seeming disingenuous I disagree. You do not have to have a paper published to be 'right'. That said - if people disagree with you - or question you - you should be able to defend yourself. thats what happens or is supposed to happen in the peer review process. I do not think the methods are adequate to determine what is happening in his videos - there is no proof that those are even philaster (again I may have missed that proof - videos especially multiple videos) can be very confusing). That said - I do not think its warranted to call something a 'scam' - which is fraud - when it may be a mere mistake.

The reason I say this - is that I havent seen anything suggesting that the 'products' work - or do not work - and apparently thats at @Prime Coral's design (they just want to get the news out there?).... So - who knows - maybe philaster causes RTN - even some of the scientists say its 'possible' but not likely - and who knows as I've said before - if it is a bacteria and ciliate problem - perhaps this problem kills both - but we just don't know. Thats what concerns (me)

 

[Reefahholic]

It’s kinda like testing Phosphate/Phosphorus.

Are you using the high range Hanna Phosphate meter or the Ultra low range Phosphate/Phosphorus meter?

If I’m using the High Range Phosphate meter and tell you my tank is testing zero for Phosphates will you believe me? What if I have a sump full of cheato or other macro’s and the test result comes in at zero? Would you believe that zero value?