Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[Reefahholic]

That’s interesting. We give it all the time for cardiac arrhythmias especially during code situations. Be interested to see the effect on Bacteria, Ciliates, or Parasites.

Just as a curiosity, but related to the subject, I have read in some papers, directed to the medical parasitology, on the effects of new drugs, previously used for another purpose, in the control of trypanosomiasis and other diseases produced by flagellated microorganisms, especially Trypanosoma sp. and Leishmania sp, causing human disease such as Chagas disease and Leishmaniasis, produced by the mentioned microorganisms.

One of these drugs is Amiodarone, an inexpensive and easily available drug in any drugstore, that has been shown to be effective against these ciliates in recent studies and whose mechanism of action is based on the blockade of sterol synthesis by oxidosqualene pathway and also on the blockade of channels of calcium, disrupting motility and, subsequently, provocking the cell lysis, by alteration of the integrity of the membranes.

Oxidoesqualene and calcium channel blockers have potential for toxicity in to higher animals above certain concentrations, but considering the therapeutic window of Amiodarone in humans, and their effectiveness at low doses against these organisms, I wonder if, perhaps , it would be interesting to experience its effects against marine flagellates in a controlled environment [flagellated algae (dino) and protozoa (Philaster)], for probable application in emergency situations in our aquariums.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16451055

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/30386379

Best regards

 

[Jose Mayo]

That’s interesting. We give it all the time for cardiac arrhythmias especially during code situations. Be interested to see the effect on Bacteria, Ciliates, or Parasites.

I do not think it has effect for bacteria, but for marine flagellate may have, and perhaps for some nuisance algae, like red algae (perhaps, I repeat), by similarity of some of its vital mechanisms, targets of that drug.

Regrettably, I am not in a position to do experiments at the moment ... but the information remains, so that it does not get lost.

Regards

 

[MnFish1]

One good news is that I performed a single dip in a special made up dip and it stopped all RTN instantly from progressing on 4 different corals that had extreme fast RTN yesterday. Will have to evaluate the bacteria count and status under the microscope tonight ;-)

What was the 'special made up dip'?

 

[MnFish1]

Andre says this stuff is for sale too! Only $5,000 for 1 Oz. BAH HAHAHAHA! JOKE!


Hopefully...finding the proper antibiotics to make an “effective dip” will not be too difficult once we identify the bacteria that initiate the RTN. It’s just a matter of identification. Then performing culturing and sensitivity testing until we find their sensitivity.

Finding an “IN-TANK” treatment will be a huge challenge. Antibiotics need to be dosed at therapeutic levels to kill bacteria. These levels aren’t safe in our reef tanks.

Would it be possible to keep dipping affected corals and reduce the numbers enough to gain control? Probably not. I’m doubtful we’ll ever completely eliminate these guys from our systems. If we did, would this have a negative impact on the reef.? So many questions with very few answers. :-(

Not sure its possible to do an. 'antibiotic dip' - rather the coral will need to be in a QT tank of some time - with the concentration of antibiotics in it for some days - at least this is what they did in the studies.

 

[MnFish1]

I know these articles and treatments done at a pretty high concentration of antibiotics at 100mg/L

I tried already Metro in acceptable doses at 1mg/L 4 times per day and now try Ampicillin at 1mg\L twice per day.

Lugol I haven’t tried actually to see if it kills these microbes!!! Will try that shortly.

It would be helpful to know this microbe in order to defend it.

Curious - why not use the dose that is used in the studies (i.e. 100mg/l)

PS - what is the 'green stain' you were using. Have you ever tried 'gram staining of the tissue'? Its nearly impossible to tell what bacteria is present without better staining - and usually culture. My guess is that a local microbiology lab at a University would easily be able to do this for you if you asked.

 

[Frogger]

What was the 'special made up dip'?

You need to read further into the thread. H2O2

 

[MnFish1]

You need to read further into the thread. H2O2

Sorry which thread? Does anyone else have a problem with the site - that alerts don't show up properly - but if you click on 'watched threads' there are lots of posts not seen.

 

[Jose Mayo]

Andre’s RTN eradicator dip V1.0

Buy 1 get 1 free.... Guaranteed to work or your money back. These chemicals are a secret “all natural” ORGANIC extract only found in Egypt along the Nile river.






1 Liter tank water
60ml 3% Hydrogen Peroxide

Mix it quick and swirl.

Place corals into the dip for 2 minutes and keep swirling.

Have the rinse water which is basically tankwater ready now!

After 2 minutes take corals out of the dip and immediately place into rinse water container.

Let the coral in there for 2 hours near the tank to avoid a huge temp drop.

Then place coral back into the tank.

You may see tissue that is deteriorated already coming off during the dip.

Whatever remains on the coral, likely is going to make it!
However, there is as always risk of losing the coral.

Sorry which thread? Does anyone else have a problem with the site - that alerts don't show up properly - but if you click on 'watched threads' there are lots of posts not seen.

Regards

 

[Frogger]

H2O2 is your magic elixir that kills these little guys. You have been out of the loop for over a week and have missed a lot.

 

[MnFish1]

H2O2 is your magic elixir that kills these little guys. You have been out of the loop for over a week and have missed a lot.

NO I read most of it

 

[MnFish1]

H2O2 is your magic elixir that kills these little guys. You have been out of the loop for over a week and have missed a lot.

I thought the H2O2 thing was 'sarcasm' - as in the picture, etc there were lots of other chemicals (garlic, etc). Its interesting - I would not think that H2O2 at that concentration would kill bacteria (in only 2 minutes)

 

[PSXerholic]

I thought the H2O2 thing was 'sarcasm' - as in the picture, etc there were lots of other chemicals (garlic, etc). Its interesting - I would not think that H2O2 at that concentration would kill bacteria (in only 2 minutes)

Here is where I'm at the minute.
1Liter with 60ml Hydrogen peroxide for 2-3 minutes and a 2 hour bath in tank water cleans up the coral, but does not effect the green stained microbe. Nothing does effect it actually yet.
Also this dip only works in 80% of the cases as far I see it and is not a guaranteed solution.
It cleans the coral from ciliates during the rinse and may kill even smaller bacteria that may be the real reason behind the infection.

I got some feedback from a microbiologist who strongly thinks this stained microbe is more like a Dinoflagellate which is intruding the bacteria infected tissue. He also mentioned that the pathogenic bacteria would be barely visible with even 2500x magnification.

The antibiotics treatments by MJ Sweet was done in concentrations that make a larger tank treatment very costly. 100mg/L would be required twice a day. Also it will crash the tank for sure since it will kill all bacteria, good and bad. So no tank treatment without huge risk.

What I just started this morning is to take infected coral fragments and placed them for about an hour in a tank water with Amoxicillin in concentrations of 250mg/L which is 1 pill per Liter.

Looking forward if at least infected corals can be cured somewhat to gain enough resistance to withstand the tank infection. The tank infection may be correlated to overuse of hydrocarbons that fuel bacteria in general, good or bad :-(
If it works I will try to treat infected corals in a separate small tanks to cure them at least.
No idea yet how I make that happen, ideas are welcome.
The antibiotics will kill all bacteria in that hospital tank.
Overuse of antibiotics may be possible, if the antibiotics get into the ZooX, then they would even kill the internal microbes, bacteria etc. The more the better doesn't work here.
Will see if the 250mg/L bath made it worse today evening.

Issue with Hydrogen peroxide and Iodine is that as on humans, it will destroy infected tissue.
I hope the antibiotics will slow down and kill enough pathogens in the coral that it will be able to overcome the infections. @Jose Mayo maybe some guidance here how antibiotics work ;-)

It started with the use of Aminos likely and too aggressive method of nutrient reductions outside a reactor. That I believe is what triggered the outbreak.

So stay tuned.........
Keep working on things!

 

[MnFish1]

The antibiotics treatments by MJ Sweet was done in concentrations that make a larger tank treatment very costly. 100mg/L would be required twice a day. Also it will crash the tank for sure since it will kill all bacteria, good and bad. So no tank treatment without huge risk.

Right - but I would treat the coral in a small 'QT tank' not the display. Which would be easier - ampicillin is not expensive.

Overuse of antibiotics may be possible, if the antibiotics get into the ZooX, then they would even kill the internal microbes, bacteria etc. The more the better doesn't work here.

Nog necessarily - antibiotics are specific to certain bacteria - in general. Thats why in the research - ampicillin stopped RTN, Gentamicin slowed it. Metro slowed it - but didn't stop it (etc).

Thanks for doing all of this...

 

[MnFish1]

Here is where I'm at the minute.
1Liter with 60ml Hydrogen peroxide for 2-3 minutes and a 2 hour bath in tank water cleans up the coral, but does not effect the green stained microbe. Nothing does effect it actually yet.
Also this dip only works in 80% of the cases as far I see it and is not a guaranteed solution.
It cleans the coral from ciliates during the rinse and may kill even smaller bacteria that may be the real reason behind the infection.

I got some feedback from a microbiologist who strongly thinks this stained microbe is more like a Dinoflagellate which is intruding the bacteria infected tissue. He also mentioned that the pathogenic bacteria would be barely visible with even 2500x magnification.

The antibiotics treatments by MJ Sweet was done in concentrations that make a larger tank treatment very costly. 100mg/L would be required twice a day. Also it will crash the tank for sure since it will kill all bacteria, good and bad. So no tank treatment without huge risk.

What I just started this morning is to take infected coral fragments and placed them for about an hour in a tank water with Amoxicillin in concentrations of 250mg/L which is 1 pill per Liter.

Looking forward if at least infected corals can be cured somewhat to gain enough resistance to withstand the tank infection. The tank infection may be correlated to overuse of hydrocarbons that fuel bacteria in general, good or bad :-(
If it works I will try to treat infected corals in a separate small tanks to cure them at least.
No idea yet how I make that happen, ideas are welcome.
The antibiotics will kill all bacteria in that hospital tank.
Overuse of antibiotics may be possible, if the antibiotics get into the ZooX, then they would even kill the internal microbes, bacteria etc. The more the better doesn't work here.
Will see if the 250mg/L bath made it worse today evening.

Issue with Hydrogen peroxide and Iodine is that as on humans, it will destroy infected tissue.
I hope the antibiotics will slow down and kill enough pathogens in the coral that it will be able to overcome the infections. @Jose Mayo maybe some guidance here how antibiotics work ;-)

It started with the use of Aminos likely and too aggressive method of nutrient reductions outside a reactor. That I believe is what triggered the outbreak.

So stay tuned.........
Keep working on things!

Just a suggestion - I would use the same protocol as in the study - with the ampicillin. 100mg/l - I think for 6 days - with water changes 2/day...

 

[Jose Mayo]

I hope the antibiotics will slow down and kill enough pathogens in the coral that it will be able to overcome the infections. @Jose Mayo maybe some guidance here how antibiotics work ;-)

I also only see problems with the use of antibiotics in high concentrations in tanks. The reason is obvious: they are not selective and, one of the main pillars that allow the hobby, is precisely its bacterial filter.

In smaller tanks, of one or even two liters, in the same concentration and according to the protocol established by M. Sweet, it could confirm the results of the experiment, but when returning with the same chorale to the previous conditions, in the tank, the restart of disease and tissue loss is possible - the pathogens will be there and this coral is confirmedly susceptible.

On the other hand, in the treatment of infestation by Cryptocaryon irritans, not always what it seeks is to directly eliminate the parasite, but rather to interrupt its cycle and control the outbreak, seeking balance. In this sense, it may be possible, as it says (and should suggest) @Prime Coral, which attacking mainly one of the pillars of the illness (the ciliated Philaster lucinda), be offered a chance of recovery to the affected coral.

That is why I have brought to the fore recent studies on the use of Amiodarone with promising results in coping with other disease-causing ciliates (in humans), which most likely share with Philaster Lucinda two important therapeutic targets: his kinetoplast calcium/dependent and its biochemical pathway for synthesis of sterols, whose interruption which would lead to its immobility and to the collapse of its cell membranes, leading them to death.

Since Amiodarone is not an antibiotic, it would very likely not affect the bacterial biological filter of the aquarium, but could affect animals other, than protozoa, that may have the same therapeutic targets in their tissues, if safe doses were not established - as is widely known, which differentiates the remedy from the poison, is concentration.

Best regards

 

[chicago]

folowing

 

[MnFish1]

I also only see problems with the use of antibiotics in high concentrations in tanks. The reason is obvious: they are not selective and, one of the main pillars that allow the hobby, is precisely its bacterial filter.

In smaller tanks, of one or even two liters, in the same concentration and according to the protocol established by M. Sweet, it could confirm the results of the experiment, but when returning with the same chorale to the previous conditions, in the tank, the restart of disease and tissue loss is possible - the pathogens will be there and this coral is confirmedly susceptible.

On the other hand, in the treatment of infestation by Cryptocaryon irritans, not always what it seeks is to directly eliminate the parasite, but rather to interrupt its cycle and control the outbreak, seeking balance. In this sense, it may be possible, as it says (and should suggest) @Prime Coral, which attacking mainly one of the pillars of the illness (the ciliated Philaster lucinda), be offered a chance of recovery to the affected coral.

That is why I have brought to the fore recent studies on the use of Amiodarone with promising results in coping with other disease-causing ciliates (in humans), which most likely share with Philaster Lucinda two important therapeutic targets: his kinetoplast calcium/dependent and its biochemical pathway for synthesis of sterols, whose interruption which would lead to its immobility and to the collapse of its cell membranes, leading them to death.

Since Amiodarone is not an antibiotic, it would very likely not affect the bacterial biological filter of the aquarium, but could affect animals other, than protozoa, that may have the same therapeutic targets in their tissues, if safe doses were not established - as is widely known, which differentiates the remedy from the poison, is concentration.

Best regards

But - didn't Sweets article show that antibiotics alone stopped RTN? And that metronidazole that resulted in disappearance of the ciliates did NOT stop RTN? (But merely slowed it down)

 

[Jose Mayo]

But - didn't Sweets article show that antibiotics alone stopped RTN? And that metronidazole that resulted in disappearance of the ciliates did NOT stop RTN? (But merely slowed it down)

Yes, M. Sweet's article clearly states that ampicillin and paromomycin were able to stop the progression of RTN ... in the small tank.

But that does not mean that by returning the coral to the original tank, where the disease began, the ilness would not return. That's my point.

Regarding the delay on progression of disease by metronidazole, it could be interesting when an outbreak begins, giving the coral a chance to recover, if there was not a great compromise and if the equilibrium was restored in the tank, but, regrettably, in the concentrations recommended in this study, there are several reports, in other well-conducted studies, of renal injury by metronidazole in fish.

Regards

 

[MnFish1]

Yes, M. Sweet's article clearly states that ampicillin and paromomycin were able to stop the progression of RTN ... in the small tank.

But that does not mean that by returning the coral to the original tank, where the disease began, the ilness would not return. That's my point.

Regarding the delay on progression of disease by metronidazole, it could be interesting when an outbreak begins, giving the coral a chance to recover, if there was not a great compromise and if the equilibrium was restored in the tank, but, regrettably, in the concentrations recommended in this study, there are several reports, in other well-conducted studies, of renal injury by metronidazole in fish.

Regards

Assuming these products work (very unsure) - With every tank addition you'd have to add the 'tank product' (inverts, CUC, etc) so (and I hope @Prime Coral can explain - I would assume you would have to treat the main tank. Then treat each addition (with the dip). Since these ciliates are so common - I dont see how long-term this will be possible.

And another question - I'm not sure that I 'buy' that the ciliate just goes and attacks random coral that is not injured. So if the dip stops the RTN. (keyword being if). re-adding it back to the tank should work right?

Lastly - if the success rate treating coral is 80% - does that mean that ciliates are remaining on the coral ie in the tank anyway? I dont know... But its an. interesting discussion

 

[Jose Mayo]

One clue that I have followed, and which reappears frequently, is that the ciliated Philasterl lucinda is more often found in close relation with certain algae, indicating, perhaps, that it is usually a periphyton predator and, also in this sense, a predator of microalgae ... perhaps there is an apparent predilection for ingesting zooxanthellae, when it is thrown on the injured coral, and perhaps the ingestion of living coral tissues is only a consequence of the predation of zooxanthellae, and not the purpose ...

... There are many open questions on this subject, and it is indeed a blessing that is being discussed.

Maybe even a positive result can be achieved.

Do not be discouraged!

Regards