Possible solution to end RTN forever?!?

[Reefahholic]

So it did work, and didn’t kill his Acro’s, but it needs more than a couple treatments at a higher dose. We’ll see what others report.

I don’t think he’s willing to go higher and risk his fish just yet.

 

[Demonic]

So it did work, and didn’t kill his Acro’s, but it needs more than a couple treatments at a higher dose. We’ll see what others report.

I don’t think he’s willing to go higher and risk his fish just yet.

That's what you took from that LOL
Maybe he needed the $2500 jug

 

[Reefahholic]

That's what you took from that LOL
Maybe he needed the $2500 jug

I just think it’s a bit too early to say it doesn’t work. I’m following Andre and I’ve been to his house. I know what’s going on in FB.

I wanna see what others report before I draw my conclusions.

 

[MnFish1]

That's what you took from that LOL
Maybe he needed the $2500 jug

And there are at least 4 ciliates that do the same thing as Philaster (to my memory). The key point being there was reinfection - and it continued to progress on 'at least some SPS'.

This is good information. Not sure why the dose was upped to 150% - wonder if fish were present and how they did?

 

[Reefahholic]

And there are at least 4 ciliates that do the same thing as Philaster (to my memory). The key point being there was reinfection - and it continued to progress on 'at least some SPS'.

This is good information. Not sure why the dose was upped to 150% - wonder if fish were present and how they did?

I’ll fill you guys in with the info. Let me gather it.
From what I understand the Dip works well. It’s the in-tank treatment that’s subjective at this point.

It’s dropping oxygen levels and mildly affecting inverts and fish at the recommended dosage.

Andre’s Flame Angle was on bottom when he > dose by 150%.

Be right back.

 

[Demonic]

I’ll fill you guys in with the info. Let me gather it.
From what I understand the Dip works well. It’s the in-tank treatment that’s subjective at this point.

It’s dropping oxygen levels and mildly affecting inverts and fish at the recommended dosage.

Andre’s Flame Angle was on bottom when he > dose by 150%.

Be right back.

He said the flame angel didn't make it but that was the only fish loss

 

[Reefahholic]

Andre:

So here an update after the Yesterday’s 3rd treatment.

As you guys can see from the posts, I went up to 150% dosage with the Boosters.

My current opinion is that the Dip works very well and kills the parasites.

Doing the tank treatments, I’m sceptic if that’s in my particular case doing any good!

Not that I kill fish in these higher concentrations which PC makes you clearly aware of, going outside the normal dosages did not in my opinion killed enough parasite species or parasites to get an outbreak under control.
Means today’s morning microscopic exam on another SPS base in the Twilight zone, did show still too many population on the coral to call it a success.
Also the high dosages been at 150%, showed other animals under high stress, small invertebrates floating around dead and corals started to retract their polyps.

Here’s the flame angel with the increased dose.
Photo credit: Andre



So don’t increase the dose if you are testing and fish are present.

 

[jda]

Post 464 is another failure.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/possible-solution-to-end-rtn-forever.563527/page-24#post-5803405

 

[Reefahholic]

I also want to note that it dropped his nitrates to zero after those treatments and the > dose. So use caution if testing. I would not increase the dose at all.

For the record, he said there were still a ton of ciliates present after all the in-tank treatments.

That is discouraging for me at least for the in-tank treatment. I’m not willing to spend that kind of money to do multiple treatments.

 

[MnFish1]

Yep, because of certain people who aren’t looking for answers. They’re only looking to stir the pot.

Some of us are genuinely looking for answers. We don’t care to argue and listen to all the nonsense.

BTW - it reminds me of a way 'not' to reprimand workers in a group setting. Saying to a bunch of people 'Some here are doing xxxx'.... So the people that are doing nothing wrong feel they are doing something wrong as well. If you have certain people you think are not looking for answers - but merely stirring the pot - call them out. But - Don't do it to the entire thread (IMHO)

 

[MnFish1]

He just got the products. It’s a little early to say for sure. He and I live in the same city. I know exactly what’s going on with Andre’s tank.

He never said it didn’t work. He said he discontinued the treatment for now and would fill us in later about it.

It would be interesting to know 'why'?

 

[Reefahholic]

It would be interesting to know 'why'?

I just posted why. In-tank treatment doesn’t seem to be working at this point. Still a little early to say for sure.

 

[Reefahholic]

Other interesting observations:


I completed my first treatment yesterday. Here are some observations:

Dosage: 3 ml for my ~40 gal tank. I intentionally under dosed with this being my first time at it.

1445: dose added over a 30 min interval. Skimmer overflowing into the sump, carbon taken out, GFO operational, microbubbler running.

1515: dosing complete

1530: all my nassarius snails came out of the sand and started climbing up the glass. In about 30 mins they settled back down to grazing on the sand bed.

1600: my royal gramma basslet seemed to be the only fish affected by the treatment. Breathing seemed normal but he lay still sideways on the underside of the rock ledge. My watchman goby was the only other fish that appeared to be breathing a little heavy. All others seemed fine.

1800: all the fish were doing fine and swimming around as normal. They all ate their evening meal as normal.

0700 this morning: completed a 10% water change and started running carbon again.

I will see how the SPS react to the treatment over the next couple of days and will do a full strength treatment next week.

 

[MnFish1]

I’ll fill you guys in with the info. Let me gather it.
From what I understand the Dip works well. It’s the in-tank treatment that’s subjective at this point.

It’s dropping oxygen levels and mildly affecting inverts and fish at the recommended dosage.

Andre’s Flame Angle was on bottom when he > dose by 150%.

Be right back.

why would a flame angel be on the bottom after a treatment? ---I mean In my tank I have a ton of flow - from what I see here - most people have a trickle.

 

[Reefahholic]

I’ll will ask this guy for a NO3 reading. Will report back.

 

[Demonic]

It would be interesting to know 'why'?

If I lost a fish after dosing an unknown, I know I would discontinue the treatment. That could be the case but I don't know that for sure.

 

[Reefahholic]

If I lost a fish after dosing an unknown, I know I would discontinue the treatment. That could be the case but I don't know that for sure.

This is why he discontinued the in-tank treatment:

So far, the PC RTN STOP Dip worked in my cases very well to stop the TN when used on corals I took out of the tank.
However they seem to get re-infected in my tank so I tried in the first part of this entire adventure the PC Preventive RTN Tank treatment.
I performed 3 tank treatments (2@100% and the last I did do Boosters and bumped it as earlier described to 150%)
Unfortunately in at least my case, STN continued to progress on some SPS.
From the microscopic exams I do see the population of ciliates such as Philaster decreased significantly and certain other species became dominant, especially Euplotes.
However, I afraid that I need in my case higher dosages and the effects of the Treatment with fish remaining in the tank is a considerable factor.

At this point, I do made the decision to perform Antibiotics and Vitamin-C as I did in the past, but more controlled, in terms of watching the visual indications of ciliates population and ratio of species as far as possible.
Going back to a publication from M.J Sweet, there were multiple antibiotics been used on isolated SPS corals with the results that TN stopped.
It’s a really interesting read for the ones that are interested on this subject. In a nutshell, Metronidazole, Ampicillin and another one I can’t get my hands on was used in this experiment.
But these Antibiotics have been used separate from each other. The worst results were made with the use of Metro. However Metro is used in order to reduce Protozoa in many biological and medical applications.
So I will start with Metro. Ampicillin is more effective against bacterial pathogen, so following the theory that ciliates are the only root cause of TN, Metro may be the better option to start with.
Read up the article I will link below for more details, just be patient and read the scientific article written in scientific language, but not as bad as some others

Anyways, M.J Sweets theory is that ciliates and bacteria are primary and secondary pathogens, causing TN in a great partnership.
The experimental dosage was for each Antibiotic 100microgram/mL, dosed twice daily.
Here the math: 100microgram/ml is 100mg/L of Antibiotics.
Means for a 1,000L tank I do need 100,000mg or 100g of Antibiotic twice a day
Not sure about the impact to a full Reef tank in that dosage, not speaking about the cost, lol.
Means since Metroplex is about $15, and with 70% of active ingredient of Metro, I would need 7 packages of Metroplex twice a day, which makes a daily cost of $210 dollies
But rather than the cost, I’m more concerned the biological impact of that dosage of antibiotics on the tank!!!

So the Reef safe dose recommended to me by others, was in the past about daily 2% of what the experiment of MJ Sweet describes.
I use 1mg/L, every 6 hours, 4 times a day. Remember Seachem Metro only covers 70%, so you need to account for that on the math.
Additionally I support the tank (hopefully) with a Non-Acidic Vitamin-C twice a day at the amount of 2g per serving
I dilute Antibiotics and Vitamins separate from each other and timely delayed in tank water, and pour it into the tank.
No activated carbon, no UV and no ozone being used during that time.

I will see results or not within the first week, with follow up exams of the coral tissue.
So wish me good luck


-Andre

 

[MnFish1]

This is why he discontinued the in-tank treatment:

So far, the PC RTN STOP Dip worked in my cases very well to stop the TN when used on corals I took out of the tank.
However they seem to get re-infected in my tank so I tried in the first part of this entire adventure the PC Preventive RTN Tank treatment.
I performed 3 tank treatments (2@100% and the last I did do Boosters and bumped it as earlier described to 150%)
Unfortunately in at least my case, STN continued to progress on some SPS.
From the microscopic exams I do see the population of ciliates such as Philaster decreased significantly and certain other species became dominant, especially Euplotes.
However, I afraid that I need in my case higher dosages and the effects of the Treatment with fish remaining in the tank is a considerable factor.

At this point, I do made the decision to perform Antibiotics and Vitamin-C as I did in the past, but more controlled, in terms of watching the visual indications of ciliates population and ratio of species as far as possible.
Going back to a publication from M.J Sweet, there were multiple antibiotics been used on isolated SPS corals with the results that TN stopped.
It’s a really interesting read for the ones that are interested on this subject. In a nutshell, Metronidazole, Ampicillin and another one I can’t get my hands on was used in this experiment.
But these Antibiotics have been used separate from each other. The worst results were made with the use of Metro. However Metro is used in order to reduce Protozoa in many biological and medical applications.
So I will start with Metro. Ampicillin is more effective against bacterial pathogen, so following the theory that ciliates are the only root cause of TN, Metro may be the better option to start with.
Read up the article I will link below for more details, just be patient and read the scientific article written in scientific language, but not as bad as some others

Anyways, M.J Sweets theory is that ciliates and bacteria are primary and secondary pathogens, causing TN in a great partnership.
The experimental dosage was for each Antibiotic 100microgram/mL, dosed twice daily.
Here the math: 100microgram/ml is 100mg/L of Antibiotics.
Means for a 1,000L tank I do need 100,000mg or 100g of Antibiotic twice a day
Not sure about the impact to a full Reef tank in that dosage, not speaking about the cost, lol.
Means since Metroplex is about $15, and with 70% of active ingredient of Metro, I would need 7 packages of Metroplex twice a day, which makes a daily cost of $210 dollies
But rather than the cost, I’m more concerned the biological impact of that dosage of antibiotics on the tank!!!

So the Reef safe dose recommended to me by others, was in the past about daily 2% of what the experiment of MJ Sweet describes.
I use 1mg/L, every 6 hours, 4 times a day. Remember Seachem Metro only covers 70%, so you need to account for that on the math.
Additionally I support the tank (hopefully) with a Non-Acidic Vitamin-C twice a day at the amount of 2g per serving
I dilute Antibiotics and Vitamins separate from each other and timely delayed in tank water, and pour it into the tank.
No activated carbon, no UV and no ozone being used during that time.

I will see results or not within the first week, with follow up exams of the coral tissue.
So wish me good luck


-Andre

Interesting - I would have isolated the damaged coral and put them in a tank with 100 mg/l. ampicillin - I would never dose that in a display tank.

 

[Demonic]

Interesting - I would have isolated the damaged coral and put them in a tank with 100 mg/l. ampicillin - I would never dose that in a display tank.

And he has a beautiful display. Too risky for me to to do that

 

[MnFish1]

This is why he discontinued the in-tank treatment:

So far, the PC RTN STOP Dip worked in my cases very well to stop the TN when used on corals I took out of the tank.
However they seem to get re-infected in my tank so I tried in the first part of this entire adventure the PC Preventive RTN Tank treatment.
I performed 3 tank treatments (2@100% and the last I did do Boosters and bumped it as earlier described to 150%)
Unfortunately in at least my case, STN continued to progress on some SPS.
From the microscopic exams I do see the population of ciliates such as Philaster decreased significantly and certain other species became dominant, especially Euplotes.
However, I afraid that I need in my case higher dosages and the effects of the Treatment with fish remaining in the tank is a considerable factor.

At this point, I do made the decision to perform Antibiotics and Vitamin-C as I did in the past, but more controlled, in terms of watching the visual indications of ciliates population and ratio of species as far as possible.
Going back to a publication from M.J Sweet, there were multiple antibiotics been used on isolated SPS corals with the results that TN stopped.
It’s a really interesting read for the ones that are interested on this subject. In a nutshell, Metronidazole, Ampicillin and another one I can’t get my hands on was used in this experiment.
But these Antibiotics have been used separate from each other. The worst results were made with the use of Metro. However Metro is used in order to reduce Protozoa in many biological and medical applications.
So I will start with Metro. Ampicillin is more effective against bacterial pathogen, so following the theory that ciliates are the only root cause of TN, Metro may be the better option to start with.
Read up the article I will link below for more details, just be patient and read the scientific article written in scientific language, but not as bad as some others

Anyways, M.J Sweets theory is that ciliates and bacteria are primary and secondary pathogens, causing TN in a great partnership.
The experimental dosage was for each Antibiotic 100microgram/mL, dosed twice daily.
Here the math: 100microgram/ml is 100mg/L of Antibiotics.
Means for a 1,000L tank I do need 100,000mg or 100g of Antibiotic twice a day
Not sure about the impact to a full Reef tank in that dosage, not speaking about the cost, lol.
Means since Metroplex is about $15, and with 70% of active ingredient of Metro, I would need 7 packages of Metroplex twice a day, which makes a daily cost of $210 dollies
But rather than the cost, I’m more concerned the biological impact of that dosage of antibiotics on the tank!!!

So the Reef safe dose recommended to me by others, was in the past about daily 2% of what the experiment of MJ Sweet describes.
I use 1mg/L, every 6 hours, 4 times a day. Remember Seachem Metro only covers 70%, so you need to account for that on the math.
Additionally I support the tank (hopefully) with a Non-Acidic Vitamin-C twice a day at the amount of 2g per serving
I dilute Antibiotics and Vitamins separate from each other and timely delayed in tank water, and pour it into the tank.
No activated carbon, no UV and no ozone being used during that time.

I will see results or not within the first week, with follow up exams of the coral tissue.
So wish me good luck


-Andre

One thing is that in comparison to metronidazole - ampicillin may mess with other things.......... SO its not the same thing.