Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

[JCOLE]

we should not be using antibiotics/cipro for the reasons mentioned copiously in the thread up till now. using pro biotics/sounds great. don't keep anemones if you can't do it without cipro. I wouldn't ever need it to keep anems. its a lazy approach that is harmful, for reasons covered, and use of cipro stifles innovation that reefers would be driven to find were they not given 20 workarounds via online pill mills. there is no way "they'd die" without cipro, that's not a reef tank article. ocean articles don't apply to reef tanks especially in this sense, just like the copious ocean substrate articles don't apply to reef tank sandbeds.

How do you know this? I've had firsthand experience with this. My corals were dying right in front of me, and my Aquabiomics tests revealed a high level of Oceanospirillales bacteria, which Acropora with RTN had in the link I provided some time ago.

This isn't directed at you, but I hear it all the time when these treatments are mentioned. "We didn't need this back in the day." The entire "back in the day" approach no longer works. Back in the day, "corals in the ocean were not wasting away like they are now. Acting as if a bad bacteria or pathogen could not be transmitted to our tanks from the ocean now, with all of the basement importers, bottled bacteria, etc is foolish. In the last five years, I have never seen as many cases of RTN or STN in tanks as I have now. Why is this so? Many will point to dry rocks, but I believe it is more due to the introduction of bad bacteria and pathogens before the good biome can establish itself. How are they being introduced? It could be from mariculture corals or from the popular trend of dumping bottled mystery bacteria into our tanks.

I agree that Cipro should not be used as a first-line treatment for RTN or STN because other factors may be involved. I watched my coral deteriorate for months before starting Cipro. I followed the steps and sent a sample to Aquabiomics before dosing. Cipro, I believe, can be a valuable tool when used correctly. Instead of telling everyone not to use it, perhaps we should teach them how to use it properly and responsibly.

I also believe that using Cipro as a dip is a bad idea because most people will not dispose of it properly. Dumping it down the drain could have a negative impact. However, I see nothing wrong with an in-tank treatment. When Cipro is exposed to UV and light, it degrades. Where is the problem if someone waits a couple of weeks after treatment to do a water change, etc.? By then the antibiotic should be inert.

 

[brandon429]

how much credence do you give post 1, from the doctor, saying that we/none of us can justify it's use

take humans: which is wiser: take pills/antibiotics for every malady where they honestly can (for a while) knock out some disease OR
exercise
eat healthy
live healthy
drive your own immune system to top power

cipro users are advocating for sedentary reefing+ taking pills to stay alive. I never doubted it's giving immediate short-term effects (until skipping fallow re imports some bacterial strain they're now weaker to, vs stronger, then we're medicating again)
surely you can catch my flow / analogies here

not even the doctors disagree cipro won't give some tangible immediate results

no long scope goals are being factored whatsoever in this trending. we're teaching all reefers to use these dangerous workarounds

this dosing drives down an entire reef's ability to withstand challenge and disease with every dose. I bet nearly all my 5 factors above don't apply to the bulk of cipro addicted tanks here

 

[JCOLE]

how much credence do you give post 1, from the doctor, saying that we/none of us can justify it's use

take humans: which is wiser: take pills/antibiotics for every malady where they honestly can (for a while) knock out some disease OR
exercise
eat healthy
live healthy
drive your own immune system to top power

you're advocating for sedentary reefing+ taking pills to stay alive. I never doubted it's giving you immediate short-term effects (until skipping fallow re imports some bacterial strain they're now weaker to, vs stronger, then you're medicating again)
surely you can catch my flow / analogies here

not even the doctors disagree cipro won't give some tangible immediate results

no long scope goals are being factored whatsoever in this trending. we're teaching all reefers to use these dangerous workarounds

you are driving down your entire reef's ability to withstand challenge and disease with every dose. I bet nearly all my 5 factors above don't apply to the bulk of cipro addicted tanks here

First off, I agree with you.

I am a firm believer in first exhausting all manual measures before resorting to chemicals, treatments, and so on. That being said, I am not advocating for sedentary reefing, and there are times when manual treatments are insufficient for reefers.

In the first post, the OP mentions using Cipro as a DIP. Again, I agree that this is not a wise path to take because most people are not experienced enough to use it properly as a dip and may cause more problems than they solve. However, I believe that a rare occurrence for in-tank treatment is acceptable if necessary. The emphasis is on rare occurrences. Cipro should not be used in the same way that ChemiClean is, where some people take it once a month as a preventative measure.

I understand your concern about using Cipro. However, the occasional reefer who uses it once or twice a year is not a problem here. Check out the fish farms that dose Cipro in all of their hospital tanks if you want to be scared away from Cipro.

 

[brandon429]

I do not believe it works as a dip anymore than a human taking 2 pills off a ten day course works, in fact it's worse that way by allowing quick adaptation for the targets

 

[JCOLE]

I do not believe it works as a dip anymore than a human taking 2 pills off a ten day course works, in fact it's worse that way by allowing quick adaptation for the targets

Exactly! I have never dipped a coral with Cipro for that reason. I don't understand what 15 minutes of Cipro will accomplish. I ran Cipro in my tank for 10 days and didn't see any results until around the 8 day mark.

 

[brandon429]

I know none of my opinions matter on the issue lol I reef in a vase. it's simply fun to review science all day in between helping customers with their internet outages heh (hey, can we start by you getting your router up off the floor/remove the pile of clothes from on top of it?)

 

[MnFish1]

First off, I agree with you.

I am a firm believer in first exhausting all manual measures before resorting to chemicals, treatments, and so on. That being said, I am not advocating for sedentary reefing, and there are times when manual treatments are insufficient for reefers.

In the first post, the OP mentions using Cipro as a DIP. Again, I agree that this is not a wise path to take because most people are not experienced enough to use it properly as a dip and may cause more problems than they solve. However, I believe that a rare occurrence for in-tank treatment is acceptable if necessary. The emphasis is on rare occurrences. Cipro should not be used in the same way that ChemiClean is, where some people take it once a month as a preventative measure.

I understand your concern about using Cipro. However, the occasional reefer who uses it once or twice a year is not a problem here. Check out the fish farms that dose Cipro in all of their hospital tanks if you want to be scared away from Cipro.

IMHO is not a wise thing to do in a tank either. It's also not a wise thing to do in fish farms or pig farms for that matter. This is why many countries have strict limits on the use of antibiotics - except under the direction of a veterinarian or a physician.

One of the main reasons is that there is clear data that antibiotic overuse is leading to multi-resistant bacteria (i.e. bacteria resistant to multiple antibiotics - that can be spread by bacteriophages (kind of like a virus) - long after the antibiotic itself is gone.

Second - there is no real data that cipro is doing anything to the actual bacteria its purporting to treat (unless I've missed it). I.e. there is no bacteria isolated from the coral (or anemone), which is proved sensitive to cipro, which is proved to be killed after cipro. Thus even though the risk of issues is small, IMHO, thats up to medical professionals to decide - not reefers.

There are many studies out there that have tested various chemicals to treat STN and RTN, and many purported causes.

 

[JCOLE]

There are many studies out there that have tested various chemicals to treat STN and RTN, and many purported causes.

What chemicals would those be?

 

[MnFish1]

What chemicals would those be?

Here is a poll that I posted some time ago - https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/what-products-methods-have-you-used-tried-to-cure-rtn.583947/

There are also papers out there that suggest that vibrio and or serratia are associated with coral disease in Florida.

 

[Auto-pilot]

I disagree with the OP. Cipro and amoxicillin have saved many of my 800$ corals. I've used 5 or 6 Cipro pills with my treatments in my life. To say that it's immoral to to use antibiotics to treat corals seems unreasonable. When we take antibiotics most of it is peed out in our urine so with this logic maybe we should all just die instead of taking antibiotics. The amount of antibiotics used to cure coral is minimal compared to many industries that dump way more antibiotics down the drains like the meat industry, is that immoral? What about our cats and dogs? Is it immoral to treat them, if not what's difference about coral. My argument is that if we eat antibiotics we pee it out introducing it into the environment just as much as if I use it in my aquarium. It may even be less because due to the high calcium and ph, by the time I dump my solution down the drain most of it is chelated and had become a different compound.

 

[brandon429]

from the hobbyist perspective your take makes perfect sense, strictly that perspective. you're not an md am thinking? I know that we're all primed to eschew anything involving epidemiology/that's for sure. nowadays everyone knows more than their dr/aware

quick access to pill mills/scrip workarounds causes this mode of thinking.

what would be more impressive: you made a work thread where you cured anemone issues in pattern for 50 keepers and linked that for us to read. = not a quick fix, required thought...

 

[Rubymoon286]

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days.

Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor.

I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals…

But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on antibiotics, specially ciprofloxacin and amoxicillin!

Those antibiotics are EXTREMELY important for human treatments.

I also believe it is not really necessary to explain about natural selection and bacteria resistance to antibiotics, what I consider to be known by most users.

There are many human substances we use for special purposes and I am not against this (fish treatments, fluconazole, in tank azithromycin, milbemycin etc).

But, with CIPRO and AMOXICILLIN for DIPS what we have been doing each day more is very wrong, and dangerous. I’m talking about public health.

We are frequently throwing 2 fresh, active and very important antibiotics down the drain. This WILL (not could) create increased bacteria resistance on the environment. Bacteria resistance is already a very important matter on human health care and those are not antibiotics we could stop counting on.

Please I ask you spread word of this very important problem we can be creating.

I appreciate you making this post - my thesis for my phd was on treatment resistant infections (both bacterial and fungal) and I am often alarmed at how many reefers use Cipro especially, but also Amoxicillin so casually.

 

[JCOLE]

This is a hobby from which we are constantly learning. Scientists are also learning from hobbyists and applying what they have discovered to their work.

Twenty years ago, hobbyists did not know fluconazole could kill Bryopsis. A hobbyist tried a treatment and discovered that it killed his Bryopsis. Is fluconazole your first line of defense when dealing with algae? No. However, it is a tool to be used only when absolutely necessary.

The same is true for Cipro, Oxolinic Acid, and other medications. We're only now learning what these can do for RTN and STN events.

 

[MnFish1]

I disagree with the OP. Cipro and amoxicillin have saved many of my 800$ corals. I've used 5 or 6 Cipro pills with my treatments in my life. To say that it's immoral to to use antibiotics to treat corals seems unreasonable. When we take antibiotics most of it is peed out in our urine so with this logic maybe we should all just die instead of taking antibiotics. The amount of antibiotics used to cure coral is minimal compared to many industries that dump way more antibiotics down the drains like the meat industry, is that immoral? What about our cats and dogs? Is it immoral to treat them, if not what's difference about coral. My argument is that if we eat antibiotics we pee it out introducing it into the environment just as much as if I use it in my aquarium. It may even be less because due to the high calcium and ph, by the time I dump my solution down the drain most of it is chelated and had become a different compound.

Just for the sake of discussion, how do you know that another antibiotic not used in humans would not have done the same thing? Or an antibiotic with less of a broad spectrum? I would make the point that unless you know what you're treating you shouldn't be treating.

Again - the inactivation of the cipro is not really important - since bacteria multipley so quickly IF resistance develops its there. Second - the fact that many types of resistance are transferred by through plasmids/bacteriophages resistance to MANY other antibiotics can also be caused.

Lastly - IF a reefer wants to use an antibiotic - its practically impossible to dose correctly if you are using a tablet because 1) the medication is often not evenly dispersed through the tablet 2)

 

[MnFish1]

This is a hobby from which we are constantly learning. Scientists are also learning from hobbyists and applying what they have discovered to their work.

Twenty years ago, hobbyists did not know fluconazole could kill Bryopsis. A hobbyist tried a treatment and discovered that it killed his Bryopsis. Is fluconazole your first line of defense when dealing with algae? No. However, it is a tool to be used only when absolutely necessary.

The same is true for Cipro, Oxolinic Acid, and other medications. We're only now learning what these can do for RTN and STN events.

In theory this sounds true. In reality, because it's not practical, for anecdotal hobbyist experiments to prove much - OR - that whatever the solution is is the 'best' solution. If, in fact, as it's purported to be - that anemones often need to be treated with cipro, I would assume that a wholesaler would do so. It's not an expensive drug. The reason it's not done - is that there is no clear experimental data that shows it works.

There is also data out for many years that resistance to fluconazole can develop (and does develop). Fungi (the usual target of fluconazole-type medications) - can be notoriously hard to treat. IMHO - people using fluconazole to kill algae are potentially doing more harm than those using cipro - firstly its a cosmetic problem as compared to a disease and can be taken care of using other methods as well

 

[MnFish1]

I understand your concern about using Cipro. However, the occasional reefer who uses it once or twice a year is not a problem here. Check out the fish farms that dose Cipro in all of their hospital tanks if you want to be scared away from Cipro.

Sorry I meant to respond to this. Using cipro in a 'hospital tank' on a 'fish farm' is different - I assume it's treating a known disease as compared to being thrown into every pond. Additionally, treating a fish with a disease in a home setting IMHO - is different.

Lastly (I promise) - the main topic of the OP was using antibiotics as DIPS - which does not make any sense in any case.

 

[brandon429]

@bushdoc

How are you quiet and removed from the conversation now? In my thread there were cheerleaders for 'pro galore

I think it may be the audience that determines participation rate and content, peer doctors don't buy in as much am thinking

 

[MnFish1]

I'm a doctor. I'm. microbiologist - LOL you're ignoring common sense Brandon

 

[MnFish1]

@bushdoc

How are you quiet and removed from the conversation now? In my thread there were cheerleaders for 'pro galore

I think it may be the audience that determines participation rate and content, peer doctors don't buy in as much am thinking

Perhaps -people not attached to the site 24.7 do not always read each post? IDK. - What you're saying - is undoubtedly true

 

[Spare time]

JCole

The reason that's impactful to me in the context of this thread is due to the distinction of probiotic/ adding bacteria vs antibiotic/ subtracting bacteria

That's a big distinction. Probiotics don't contribute to building antibiotic - resistant strains and using up med stores that impact humans. Nice post for sure.

The big deal challenge remains that reefers have easy access to cipro (one day to be replaced with any other form of functional antibiotic attained by circumventing the legitimate md- prescribed pathway) *and are willing to use it ad libitum if it helps their anemones* without any consideration of the bigger picture, especially any care of the long term potential impacts to humans. They simply are willing to do whatever it takes to sustain perfect anemones taking the shortcut short- term solution of killing bacteria using powerful medications meant for humans and or specific veterinary indications. It's short sighted and harmful to do this in my opinion.

Check this out: look how much kick back+I don't care attitude I got in this thread, matching the same title of this current thread:

Human safety issues aren't rare-discuss classroom reefs, home reef-caused infections in humans. this is an untold side of home reef tanking

Vermitid pokes? Lol I literally grab live rock out of my tank and rub hundreds of vermitids off with my palms and fingers I ended up in the hospital with a vermicide poke on my wrist.

www.reef2reef.com

@Tamberav

I agree. This is a reason I am against prophylactic anti biotic use as well as hydrogen peroxide dips for corals. The microbiome on many organisms is essentially an immune system for the host and contributes significantly to the regular function of the host in various ways.