Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

[Reef and Dive]

I have a question, doesn't a large fraction of antibiotics (original or converted form) end up in the human feces ending up in sewers? isn't this a bigger issue to be addressed? just to be clear I am not underestimating the issue being discussed in this thread but I am just wondering.

It is more about the way it is used (DIPS-> drain) and what medications are used.

Not a general antibiotics dumping thing. But yes many atb are dumped by human urine (reason why hospital areas have shown to be associated with baterial resistance, not only inside the hospital).

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

cipro tank-wide...

NOT A DIP

 

[Gatorpa]

It could be removed from the water with activated carbon. I do not believe people will do this to remove at all. UV also could cause rapid inactivation, but not common light.

If you aren’t doing a water change and the tank water never leaves the system do you still have a fear of creating resistance?

Edit: posted this prior seeing you were speaking more to Dips..

 

[Fishingandreefing]

I used Cipro on my tank a couple months ago because I lost over 90% of my Acro's to a bad pathogen. It turned my tank completely around and I 100% support it for in tank treatments.

However, I do see where you are coming from with dips as this is usually getting dumped down the drain or in the environment. This leads to me to ask the question. Is there anything that can be done to the dip afterwards to cause antibiotics to be inactive? I know light causes Cipro to lose it's potency so wondering if exposed to light for a period of time would be the way? Just a thought.

Can you share how much you dosed and for what type of corals. I got stn and rtn on sps and lps recedings it won’t open fully. All parameters looks ok.

 

[Wildreefs]

Do you really think scientists are trying as hard to cure the afflicted deer as they would be if it were a human issue? Also, viruses and bacteria aren't the only organisms that adapt...every organism does-including humans. Covid was a pandemic that we had no idea how to treat at first...we figured that one out.

Lolol oh really? By not testing anymore?

here we are concerned with intervention (abx) mutating the bacteria .

 

[JCOLE]

Can you share how much you dosed and for what type of corals. I got stn and rtn on sps and lps recedings it won’t open fully. All parameters looks ok.

No problem. My system is all Acropora. I removed my UV sterilizer in April and within a couple weeks pieces started to lose color and turn brown then most started to STN. I couldn't stop it and nothing I did or was doing should have caused this. I sent off a sample to Aquabiomics and I found I had a very large number of Oceanospirillaceae bacteria. After doing some research I found a student thesis online regarding Oceanospirillaceae causing RTN and white band disease on the reefs.

I decided I had nothing to lose at that point and it was either start fresh on the new build or dose Cipro and see if i could save what was left.

My system at the time was around 400 gallons total. I dosed half a tablet(250mg) in my system every night for 11 days when lights were out. I would also turn off my skimmers at night and then turn them back on in the morning.

Within two weeks I was noticing big improvements. My corals stopped with STN and algae started growing on the skeletons(which is a good sign). Also, my pH shot up to levels I haven't seen in a while. Before treatment my pH would run from 7.8-7.9 daily. After treatment it now runs from 8-8.2 daily.

Shoot me a PM if you want to discuss your system and treatment.

If anyone else is interested in seeing the Aquabiomics and other results, etc then let me know and I will post it in here.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

here we are concerned with intervention (abx) mutating the bacteria .

No one has claimed that antibiotics "mutate the bacteria".
Sheesh!

 

[Tired]

...antibiotic-resistant bacteria are mutated bacteria. In the way that all bacteria are mutated versions of something else. Poor phrasing, but not entirely incorrect.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

...antibiotic-resistant bacteria are mutated bacteria. In the way that all bacteria are mutated versions of something else. Poor phrasing, but not entirely incorrect.

But they didn't mutate because of the antibiotic... The ab-resistant strain(s) are the few out of countless mutations that happen to survive against a particular ab.

They generally make up a <very> small percentage because the existing strains continue to multiply and outcompete the new strains for food, space, etc.

The point of not dousing the environment with antibiotics is that the weaker (but generally more numerous) bacteria will be killed off and the stronger/resistant bacteria will then become more numerous/dominant.

 

[Reef and Dive]

If you aren’t doing a water change and the tank water never leaves the system do you still have a fear of creating resistance?

Edit: posted this prior seeing you were speaking more to Dips..

This situation does not worry me so much.

 

[Tired]

But they didn't mutate because of the antibiotic... The ab-resistant strain(s) are the few out of countless mutations that happen to survive against a particular ab.

Well, the mutated strain becomes a specific strain and sticks around because of the antibiotics, but I think that's me being really nitpicky with semantics and phrasing. I agree with what you're saying.

It's also not relevant to how viruses and vaccines work, at all, since vaccines don't directly act on a disease. They just point your immune system at the disease. Like the difference between rat poison, and using a fake or dead rat to teach a terrier to go and kill the rats for you. Rats can develop resistance to poisons, but they can't really develop a resistance to neck-snapped-by-dog.

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Well, the mutated strain becomes a specific strain and sticks around because of the antibiotics, but I think that's me being really nitpicky with semantics and phrasing. I agree with what you're saying.

It's also not relevant to how viruses and vaccines work, at all, since vaccines don't directly act on a disease. They just point your immune system at the disease. Like the difference between rat poison, and using a fake or dead rat to teach a terrier to go and kill the rats for you. Rats can develop resistance to poisons, but they can't really develop a resistance to neck-snapped-by-dog.

Agree 100%

 

[EeyoreIsMySpiritAnimal]

Can we please keep this on track? No religious or political comments.
@Peace River

 

[Wildreefs]

Can we please keep this on track? No religious or political comments.
@Peace River

You got it. Safe and effective

 

[Reefing Madness]

Lets keep it to the topic at hand folks

 

[epidemos82]

I am infectious disease epidemiologist and evolutionary biologist, and I will state that my professional opinion is that antibiotic use in home aquarium settings is of negligible to little impact on the emergence or proliferation of antibiotic resistance.

The greatest drivers of resistance are improper prescribing of antibiotics (e.g., physicians prescribing antibiotics for viral infections and overuse of broad-spectrum antibiotics in clinical settings) as well as misuse in the community (i.e., people not completing their prescribed course of antibiotics). Several studies have found that almost half of antibiotics prescribed in the outpatient setting or unneeded. The most common reasons are for viral otitis media (ear infections) in kids and viral upper respiratory infections in kids and adults.

As a quick side note, I see a lot of confusion in the discussion about how antibiotic use is associated with antibiotic resistance. There are several mechanisms but there are three main ones. 1) Selecting for bacteria in a population that have a mutation conferring antibiotic resistance (e.g., fluroquinolone resistance is caused by a single point mutation is a gene encoding DNA gyrase); 2) Selecting for bacteria that have acquired a mobile genetic element that carries a gene that confers antibiotic resistance, which in turn makes those element more prevalent in nature; and 3) by removing antibiotic susceptible bacteria and allowing a resistant form of that bacteria to take its place - this happens when people take broad spectrum antibiotics that leave them vulnerable to colonization with a resistant bacteria.

So back to the topic at hand. People have been long concerned with use of antibiotics in agriculture. We use A LOT of Abx in Ag for growth promoters in cattle and for disease prevention and treatment. Time and time again, studies have tried to link Abx use in Ag to actual human disease, and it is VERY hard to find documented instances. The UK has done massive studies taking samples from hospitals and farms and found very little overlap between the two. So, our use of Abx in aquarium is likely a drop in the bucket (or fish tank) compared to all of these other applications. Last, even if we were contributing to resistance by our use in fish tanks, there are very few clinically relevant bacteria in our aquariums (maybe Vibrio spp are of the most concern). By the time the Abx get to our drain, they are so diluted I don't think they have any effect whatsoever.

If you want to contribute to the prevention of Abx resistance 1) don't beg/expect an antibiotic from your doctor every time you go there for a respiratory infection, 2) if you do get an Abx, make sure you complete it, and 3) buy meat that is Abx free.

 

[MinnieMouse2]

No worries now. All fish antibiotics are being pulled from the shelves. Now we will have a lot of animals dying. You are told to go to a vet. Does the vet till you not to pour the water down the drain? To me, this is just another way to support vets and pay large fees. How about all the urine full of antibiotics and drugs now making its way back into our water supplies?

 

[Reef and Dive]

I am infectious disease epidemiologist and evolutionary biologist, and I will state that my professional opinion is that antibiotic use in home aquarium settings is of negligible to little impact on the emergence or proliferation of antibiotic resistance.

The greatest drivers of resistance are improper prescribing of antibiotics (e.g., physicians prescribing antibiotics for viral infections and overuse of broad-spectrum antibiotics in clinical settings) as well as misuse in the community (i.e., people not completing their prescribed course of antibiotics). Several studies have found that almost half of antibiotics prescribed in the outpatient setting or unneeded. The most common reasons are for viral otitis media (ear infections) in kids and viral upper respiratory infections in kids and adults.

As a quick side note, I see a lot of confusion in the discussion about how antibiotic use is associated with antibiotic resistance. There are several mechanisms but there are three main ones. 1) Selecting for bacteria in a population that have a mutation conferring antibiotic resistance (e.g., fluroquinolone resistance is caused by a single point mutation is a gene encoding DNA gyrase); 2) Selecting for bacteria that have acquired a mobile genetic element that carries a gene that confers antibiotic resistance, which in turn makes those element more prevalent in nature; and 3) by removing antibiotic susceptible bacteria and allowing a resistant form of that bacteria to take its place - this happens when people take broad spectrum antibiotics that leave them vulnerable to colonization with a resistant bacteria.

So back to the topic at hand. People have been long concerned with use of antibiotics in agriculture. We use A LOT of Abx in Ag for growth promoters in cattle and for disease prevention and treatment. Time and time again, studies have tried to link Abx use in Ag to actual human disease, and it is VERY hard to find documented instances. The UK has done massive studies taking samples from hospitals and farms and found very little overlap between the two. So, our use of Abx in aquarium is likely a drop in the bucket (or fish tank) compared to all of these other applications. Last, even if we were contributing to resistance by our use in fish tanks, there are very few clinically relevant bacteria in our aquariums (maybe Vibrio spp are of the most concern). By the time the Abx get to our drain, they are so diluted I don't think they have any effect whatsoever.

If you want to contribute to the prevention of Abx resistance 1) don't beg/expect an antibiotic from your doctor every time you go there for a respiratory infection, 2) if you do get an Abx, make sure you complete it, and 3) buy meat that is Abx free.

Do you have any serious evidence so we could be less worried? Any official guidance that is not against fresh disposal of fluoroquinolones?

Please remember to consider we are talking about DIPs and fresh and active ATB disposal AND we are talking about 2 very important antibiotics for human care. It’s not rare in my practice to manage very serious complications of resistance for those, specially Cipro, including deaths.

I have some good evidence against:

Antibiotics in the environment: causes and consequences - PMC

Antibiotics represent one of the main discoveries of the last century that changed the treatment of a large array of infections in a significant way. However, increased consumption has led to an exposure of bacterial communities and ecosystems to a ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Careless disposal of antibiotics could produce ‘ferocious superbugs,’ UN environment experts warn

Growing antimicrobial resistance linked to the discharge of drugs and some chemicals into the environment is one of the most worrying health threats today, according to new research from the United Nations that highlights emerging challenges and solutions in environment.

news.un.org

https://mdpi-res.com/d_attachment/molecules/molecules-27-04436/article_deploy/molecules-27-04436-v2.pdf?version=1658370164

https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/14787210.2020.1754797

Significance of antibiotics in the environment

Pharmaceuticals are designed to stimulate a physiological response in humans, animals, bacteria or other organisms. During the past decade, concern has gro

academic.oup.com

 

[Reef and Dive]

No worries now. All fish antibiotics are being pulled from the shelves. Now we will have a lot of animals dying. You are told to go to a vet. Does the vet till you not to pour the water down the drain? To me, this is just another way to support vets and pay large fees. How about all the urine full of antibiotics and drugs now making its way back into our water supplies?

Have you read the post? It is not at all about avoiding fish treatments.

 

[MartinM]

I am infectious disease epidemiologist and evolutionary biologist, and I will state that my professional opinion is that antibiotic use in home aquarium settings is of negligible to little impact on the emergence or proliferation of antibiotic resistance.

The greatest drivers of resistance are improper prescribing of antibiotics (e.g., physicians prescribing antibiotics for viral infections and overuse of broad-spectrum antibiotics in clinical settings) as well as misuse in the community (i.e., people not completing their prescribed course of antibiotics). Several studies have found that almost half of antibiotics prescribed in the outpatient setting or unneeded. The most common reasons are for viral otitis media (ear infections) in kids and viral upper respiratory infections in kids and adults.

As a quick side note, I see a lot of confusion in the discussion about how antibiotic use is associated with antibiotic resistance. There are several mechanisms but there are three main ones. 1) Selecting for bacteria in a population that have a mutation conferring antibiotic resistance (e.g., fluroquinolone resistance is caused by a single point mutation is a gene encoding DNA gyrase); 2) Selecting for bacteria that have acquired a mobile genetic element that carries a gene that confers antibiotic resistance, which in turn makes those element more prevalent in nature; and 3) by removing antibiotic susceptible bacteria and allowing a resistant form of that bacteria to take its place - this happens when people take broad spectrum antibiotics that leave them vulnerable to colonization with a resistant bacteria.

So back to the topic at hand. People have been long concerned with use of antibiotics in agriculture. We use A LOT of Abx in Ag for growth promoters in cattle and for disease prevention and treatment. Time and time again, studies have tried to link Abx use in Ag to actual human disease, and it is VERY hard to find documented instances. The UK has done massive studies taking samples from hospitals and farms and found very little overlap between the two. So, our use of Abx in aquarium is likely a drop in the bucket (or fish tank) compared to all of these other applications. Last, even if we were contributing to resistance by our use in fish tanks, there are very few clinically relevant bacteria in our aquariums (maybe Vibrio spp are of the most concern). By the time the Abx get to our drain, they are so diluted I don't think they have any effect whatsoever.

If you want to contribute to the prevention of Abx resistance 1) don't beg/expect an antibiotic from your doctor every time you go there for a respiratory infection, 2) if you do get an Abx, make sure you complete it, and 3) buy meat that is Abx free.

Well said. In addition, there’s new research to demonstrate that antidepressants actually contribute more to new antibiotic resistant bacterial strains than does the utilization of antibiotics themselves. So, exercise, herbs, and therapy also