Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

[olonmv]

I agree with this part...why do you think the same wouldn't apply? Like i said, every organism adapts. And yeah i agree 100% we can get better at disposing of wastes such as Cipro so why focus so much and worry about something that you fully believe is out of our control instead of focusing on and doing whatever we can to solve problems we have solutions for?

Uh, in case you missed it. We had already started to get to that. Based on that, I gathered, freezing stock solution is ok for future use and that if I ever had to make a stock solution that I need to get rid of, the texas sun and heat is where that solution will be for a few days because so far, only thing that neutralizes it is UV. I’m not focused on something that can’t be cured as much as I’m using it as an example. While pouring ab down the drain is scary, there are much scarier things out there that worry me, is what I was getting at. That…was before all the good points of AB resistance and how we contribute to it.

 

[Tired]

Still. More worried about something that medical science has absolutely no chance at beating. None. CWD wreaks havoc and is in the deer population. When are we gonna hear the alarm bells about eating deer with possible infection vs us pouring meds down the drain is all I’m saying.

Prions are terrifying, yes, but that's not really relevant. You can be concerned about both car accidents and forest fires, you don't have to pick one and completely ignore all safety concerns related to the other. To say "I'm really worried about forest fires, so I won't wear my seatbelt" would be silly, as would the statement "why are you telling people to wear seatbelts? Forest fires happen!".

Besides, antibiotic-resistant bacteria are a thing medical science struggles with, and they're much easier to pick up than chronic wasting disease.

 

[olonmv]

Prions are terrifying, yes, but that's not really relevant. You can be concerned about both car accidents and forest fires, you don't have to pick one and completely ignore all safety concerns related to the other. To say "I'm really worried about forest fires, so I won't wear my seatbelt" would be silly, as would the statement "why are you telling people to wear seatbelts? Forest fires happen!".

Besides, antibiotic-resistant bacteria are a thing medical science struggles with, and they're much easier to pick up than chronic wasting disease.

The take-away from this post should have been how to properly dispose of or, store said AB solutions we use. I’m pretty sure we got there. No need to continue beating a dead horse.

 

[olonmv]

I’m also not gonna start to be a CWD prevention advocate, it was just an example of one of the many things out there that are scary. Like AB resistance. Lol, Let the dude who shot a dear to eat, deal with it if it ever crosses over.

 

[Lowell Lemon]

I just wanted to say thanks to the physicians who stared and added to the discussion!

I am just a small voice on this topic but raised in a medical family. There are many ways to help fish and inverts heal but the use of antibiotics by hobbiest is problematic. In some cases it might be best to use other methods first. Proper application of U.V. kills bacteria and used to be done in the doctors office. This is old technology but I received treatment for a sore throat and attended temperature via a U.V. hand wand instead of antibiotics. Three treatments in a week with the first one giving almost immediate relief. It was a timed delivery and only took a very short time in the office. My bacteria counts were very high during diagnosis according to lab tests. So even though this was old technology the doctor used modern technology to arrive at diagnosis. There are old ways of treatment that many have abandoned due to the influence of the pharmaceutical industry. It is easier to roll a pill than provide other treatments. Just a side note if given antibiotics make sure you finish the prescribed treatment and take all the medications to the end of the course. Stopping when you feel better can give rise to drug resistant bacteria as well. You should always follow this unless you have adverse reactions to the given medications. If you have adverse reactions call the doctor immediately and suspend the medication.

Ozone and peroxide are other methods that can kill bacteria without the same danger of creating bacteria resistant to antibiotics. Collidal Silver was used in fish medication for years with great success in a product called Aquari-Sol but due to cost was changed to a copper formulation. It was a much more affective product before the reformulation.

The other problem is just guessing and using prophylactic antibiotics without determining the actual causative organism. I think this is a careless practice. If i remember correctly there is a difference between gram positive and gram negative bacteria and the proper treatment protocols.

Again thanks to the physicians and their knowledge on this topic. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as the old saying goes!

 

[Reef and Dive]

I just wanted to say thanks to the physicians who stared and added to the discussion!

I am just a small voice on this topic but raised in a medical family. There are many ways to help fish and inverts heal but the use of antibiotics by hobbiest is problematic. In some cases it might be best to use other methods first. Proper application of U.V. kills bacteria and used to be done in the doctors office. This is old technology but I received treatment for a sore throat and attended temperature via a U.V. hand wand instead of antibiotics. Three treatments in a week with the first one giving almost immediate relief. It was a timed delivery and only took a very short time in the office. My bacteria counts were very high during diagnosis according to lab tests. So even though this was old technology the doctor used modern technology to arrive at diagnosis. There are old ways of treatment that many have abandoned due to the influence of the pharmaceutical industry. It is easier to roll a pill than provide other treatments. Just a side note if given antibiotics make sure you finish the prescribed treatment and take all the medications to the end of the course. Stopping when you feel better can give rise to drug resistant bacteria as well. You should always follow this unless you have adverse reactions the given medications. If you have adverse reactions call the doctor immediately and suspend the medication.

Ozone and peroxide are other methods that can kill bacteria without the same danger of creating bacteria resistant to antibiotics. Collidal Silver was used in fish medication for years with great success in a product called Aquari-Sol but due to cost was changed to a copper formulation. It was a much more affective product before the reformulation.

The other problem is just guessing and using prophylactic antibiotics without determining the actual causative organism. I think this is a careless practice. If i remember correctly there is a difference between gram positive and gram negative bacteria and the proper treatment protocols.

Again thanks to the physicians and their knowledge on this topic. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure as the old saying goes!

That’s the idea!

 

[OlafsReef]

I've always used cirpo or amox baths as a last resort, but with tremendous success rates, especially with LPS.

Afterward, I fill a toilet with lots of bleach, pour in used solution, or dump lots of peroxide in the container, then flushed 3+ hours later.

Be honest, we aren't going to stop people, especially lfs and importers, from using something legal that is effective at saving pets they care about even if it is a wise thing to do. But a good first step to reducing impact would be spreading and normalizing safer disposal protocols. We all CAN do that- I hope.

What are the best commonly available methods we can use now to reduce impact during disposal process? Normalizing good disposal practices is doable and helps bring awareness to the risks of over use.

 

[FishTruck]

Yes, yes I do. Why? Because CWD is something that has great potential to jump from animal to human especially since we actively hunt and eat the animal that’s affected. It hasn’t made the jump yet, thankfully. Covid was a pandemic. With education and prevention we made it through it. Just like, with education and prevention we can get better methods of disposing the things we as aquarists use to help our livestock.

From the CDC website: here are the five known human prion diseases

• Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD)
• Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (vCJD)
• Gerstmann-Straussler-Scheinker Syndrome
• Fatal Familial Insomnia
• Kuru

Also, the six known animal prion diseases

• Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (CJD)
• Variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob Disease (vCJD)
• Gerstmann-Straussler-Scheinker Syndrome
• Fatal Familial Insomnia
• Kuru

None are curable, yet. Prions are self replicating proteins that only need contact with certain molecules to replicated. I am not aware of any that occur in fish - thank goodness for us reefers!

 

[StatelineReefer]

Still. More worried about something that medical science has absolutely no chance at beating. None. CWD wreaks havoc and is in the deer population. When are we gonna hear the alarm bells about eating deer with possible infection vs us pouring meds down the drain is all I’m saying.

That statement was already put out by Illinois and Wisconsin in 2003. Do not handle brain or spinal tissue of possibly infected deer when hunting in a CWD zone of these states. It is still not known whether the infection can be passed from cervids to humans after all this time.

Do you really think scientists are trying as hard to cure the afflicted deer as they would be if it were a human issue?

There is no cure, as science is still trying to determine the mechanism of action. Prions are strange things. Abnormal protein chains, not living organisms, but they reproduce and spread faster than a virus and can remain in the soil and outside a host for an extremely long time.

 

[olonmv]

That statement was already put out by Illinois and Wisconsin in 2003. Do not handle brain or spinal tissue of possibly infected deer when hunting in a CWD zone of these states. It is still not known whether the infection can be passed from cervids to humans after all this time.

the Back strap is the most sought after chunk of meat a hunter goes after….it’s right next to the spine.

 

[olonmv]

There is no cure, as science is still trying to determine the mechanism of action. Prions are strange things. Abnormal protein chains, not living organisms, but they reproduce and spread faster than a virus and can remain in the soil and outside a host for an extremely long time.

scientists have found that apart from their longevity outside the host, extreme heat such as cooking temps don’t kill them.

 

[Reef and Dive]

I've always used cirpo or amox baths as a last resort, but with tremendous success rates, especially with LPS.

Afterward, I fill a toilet with lots of bleach, pour in used solution, or dump lots of peroxide in the container, then flushed 3+ hours later.

Be honest, we aren't going to stop people, especially lfs and importers, from using something legal that is effective at saving pets they care about even if it is a wise thing to do. But a good first step to reducing impact would be spreading and normalizing safer disposal protocols. We all CAN do that- I hope.

What are the best commonly available methods we can use now to reduce impact during disposal process? Normalizing good disposal practices is doable and helps bring awareness to the risks of over use.

I have to admit that I do not have knowledge of US law… Here in Brazil using these antibiotics requires a medical prescription and it is not legal to be used the way it is used.

That said I have to say as a doctor, but also as a dedicated reefer that cannot leave my soul, that I’m not at all against the use to treat specific problems.

I’m really against the common use in DIPs, because of important risks for humans and no evidence of any protection for corals on few-minutes baths…

 

[HomebroodExotics]

One thing I think about seeing people using all these antibiotics in their tanks, is if you have to do this in order to keep a healthy tank and corals then something is fundamentally wrong in the husbandry. Not saying it’s that persons fault but obviously something is wrong. Imagine having a 10k reef tank that’s fully automated and then having to dose cipro in the tank every couple of months. Doesn’t make any sense.

 

[radfly]

Wah

 

[taricha]

Hey, @Reef and Dive thanks for this.
Off the top of my head, I know I can walk into a fish shop in my town and get erythromycin, metronidazole, docycycline, nitrofurazone and probably others.

Are any of these concerning to you from a human medical perspective? Or is cipro just much more human-useful than these others to make them far less concerning?

 

[taricha]

Also, thanks for thinking through the disposal.
It's been a while since I used antibiotics on any aquarium material, but in the future I'll just pour the discard in a bucket to circulate with some GAC and a UV for a day+ before any water goes down the drain.

 

[Reef and Dive]

Hey, @Reef and Dive thanks for this.
Off the top of my head, I know I can walk into a fish shop in my town and get erythromycin, metronidazole, docycycline, nitrofurazone and probably others.

Are any of these concerning to you from a human medical perspective? Or is cipro just much more human-useful than these others to make them far less concerning?

IMHO those are far less concerning in terms of human health. Erythro maybe a little but probably for cyano and very little going down the drain…

 

[mtfish]

AnimLs poop in streams and creeks which goes into rivers lakes and oceans...plus pesticides bring red tide.

Off topic but pesticides have nothing to do with red tides. Red tides increase because of high nutrients and warmer ocean waters.

 

[A Young reefer]

I have a question, doesn't a large fraction of antibiotics (original or converted form) end up in the human feces ending up in sewers? isn't this a bigger issue to be addressed? just to be clear I am not underestimating the issue being discussed in this thread but I am just wondering.

 

[taricha]

Let's talk about the aquabiomics article demonstrating that cipro tank-wide is effective vs Brown Jelly Disease
https://www.reef2reef.com/ams/exper...iotic-treatments-for-brown-jelly-disease.791/

First thought is that the thrust of the article is that BJD in euphyllia is fundamentally bacterial (this was not previously scientifically agreed upon - as BJD also almost always involves a ciliate), the bacteria is likely arcobacter genus, and ciproflaxin is a drug that eliminates arcobacter and eliminates the brown jelly disease from the corals in the treated system.
It doesn't aim to demonstrate cipro is the only effective means, for example others have said that high H2O2 doses also eliminate brown jelly.