Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

[brandon429]

I just saw three more new articles about using guess cipro levels in reef tanks for various benefits. What can outpace cipro now begins to naturally select.

There's always a tradeoff to shortcut reefing, it may be delayed

Stopping rtn and stn doesn't require cipro

Brown jelly can be prevented in other ways, it doesn't require cipro

A broad spectrum shortcut isn't long term reefing

For sure the public wants it, these articles drive many new dosers. Some complete a course, some don't, selection for the most resistant strain is underway

Some benefit will be seen, initially, then the mass- availability of cipro from online mill sources will drive hundreds of thousands of generations of new bacteria in response. It's not that a pandemic is the risk it's that a group of aquarists will justify any addition to their reef they want to add. It doesn't matter how the experiment turns out, it's that the self was served. There are other ways to deal with reef tank maladies that currently cheat by using cipro.

Preserve the effectiveness of the drug for when it's needed and indicated and matched to target.

The only place you find flippant non prescribed cipro use is in a tank forum, by forum users

For example, nobody at jama thinks yes: we do want 500k random reefers administering cipro as they see fit for years, in heated+circulated+fed bacterial cultures.
Only reef forums and blogs that benefit the hobby itself claim that boldness.

 

[brandon429]

Any use of cipro in a reef tank I find bad for the art of reefkeeping

A few can reef without it, repeat those methods

Do not teach or promote any reef tank method that eventually leads to dependence on an antibiotic


At least tie-in required fallow practice to all readers If someone is going to tout a benefit of cipro to target article readers

If someone is going to advocate medicating a group of bacteria out of the tank, circumventing the entire process by just adding more corals and clean up crew from pet stores as they see fit is ridiculous, there has to be retraining to prepare items before installation into the display to prevent needing cipro again

People who don't fallow prep and apply very very careful preps and sourcing for their frags have a higher risk of getting brown jelly disease. Cipro usage has to come with a way to avoid it change in the keepers approach to reefing.



Inherent retraining of reefing procedure should succeed all advice to use cipro in reefing. If that control aspect of separate fallow tank preparation for all new stocked items isn't closely tied to someone's article on cipro, they're just riding a popularity wave with the offer to use it for a temporary workaround.

 

[brandon429]

FDA warns Chewy kraft drug and fish antibiotics company

Looks like as of the first of the year you will no longer be able to buy fish antibiotics without a prescription. They don’t want you to have free access to these meds for a reason. Perhaps a reason that will become apparent soon FDA warns Chewy kraft drug and fish antibiotics company...

www.reef2reef.com

cirpo dosers, your day is coming - soon your cheats will stop

 

[KrisReef]

Thank god the government is going to clamp down on these tax cheats!

The only thing people should be able to buy without a prescription is a mask,

Thanks for the heads up! I'm going to stock up now in case Chewy bends over.

 

[brandon429]

the issue was the super strains cipro dosers are causing but don’t care about

see Randy’s link on the last post he made

this was always 100% terrible for the hobby

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

the issue was the super strains cipro dosers are causing but don’t care about

see Randy’s link on the last post he made

this was always 100% terrible for the hobby

I don't think it should be used either but we don't need to demonize those who used it. I highly doubt they were wishing sickness on people when they dosed it.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Thank god the government is going to clamp down on these tax cheats!

The only thing people should be able to buy without a prescription is a mask,

Thanks for the heads up! I'm going to stock up now in case Chewy bends over.

I can't believe I overlooked this comment the first time...I just started laughing after seeing again haha

I'd object due to the dangers associated with the elastic in the masks. Does anyone here know how many people die from suffocation when those elastic strings become mistakenly tangled around the throat?!

 

[alprazo]

I can't believe I overlooked this comment the first time...I just started laughing after seeing again haha

I'd object due to the dangers associated with the elastic in the masks. Does anyone here know how many people die from suffocation when those elastic strings become mistakenly tangled around the throat?!

Fabric Masks Post Suffocation, Choking Hazard To Toddlers And Infants, Health Experts Warn

With cities and counties mandating the use of masks, more people are turning to fabric masks, which they can make themselves or order online. Unfortunately, the masks can pose a choking hazard for toddlers and infants, UC Davis pediatricians warn.

www.cbsnews.com

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Fabric Masks Post Suffocation, Choking Hazard To Toddlers And Infants, Health Experts Warn

With cities and counties mandating the use of masks, more people are turning to fabric masks, which they can make themselves or order online. Unfortunately, the masks can pose a choking hazard for toddlers and infants, UC Davis pediatricians warn.

www.cbsnews.com

Wow...people were putting masks on their infants and didn't think they might either suppress a baby's light breathing or possibly choke? Wow. I don't want to say much about this except that when people get scared they act without thinking. They also don't realize they know practically nothing about what they're afraid of (I'll leave it there).

 

[zoomonster]

There are always abusers and alarmists to do with just about anything. Speaking as one with thousands of dollars in torches, hammers and frogs (among other things) yes, I do occasionally use Cipro responsibly. Meaning a properly calculated dose for a proper duration (10 days) just as I do when I take antibiotics. More problematic than fish tank use is doctors that over prescribe (or with cold/flu viral) and people that don't complete doses and then maybe flush remaining down the toilet. It really does not help that many of the big sellers use Cipro full time in their tanks to keep stuff healthy and alive until they can get it to your tank to die on your dime.

What's more interesting is a lot of comments mention not needing antibiotics for BJD but fail to suggest any alternatives. When it occurs, it can spread fast and wipe a tank. As for the company that started this whole thing... they played the alarm game last year to jack prices and encourage a rush on their products. But at least for the products I have they are manufactured in the USA by a company that produces the same drugs for humans which are one in the same. Just a more profitable outlet for products labeled for "fish" use. Then again in the end they really are cheaper because you don't have to pay a doctor for permission to purchase.

 

[MnFish1]

I do occasionally use Cipro responsibly. Meaning a properly calculated dose for a proper duration (10 days) just as I do when I take antibiotics.

BTW - I agree with the vast majority of your post. Except there is one key difference, right? When you take antibiotics, you take them after discussion with an MD, and receipt of a prescription. IMHO people using cipro as a random antibiotic are being irresponsible. IMHO, what is going to need to happen is someone is going to have to prove 1) what the agent is that causes BJD, and 2) what is the safest antibiotic to use to treat it (if any). For example, I know that Aquabiomics has found certain strains of Arcobacteria are associated with BJD (however if one looks up sensitivity data, cipro is not the most useful antibiotic at least in one study, gentamicin is). Various antibiotics including ampicillin to treat wild corals are being tested. So, at this point, again - IMHO - it's up in the air. My hope would be that something will be found to treat these diseases.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

BTW - I agree with the vast majority of your post. Except there is one key difference, right? When you take antibiotics, you take them after discussion with an MD, and receipt of a prescription. IMHO people using cipro as a random antibiotic are being irresponsible. IMHO, what is going to need to happen is someone is going to have to prove 1) what the agent is that causes BJD, and 2) what is the safest antibiotic to use to treat it (if any). For example, I know that Aquabiomics has found certain strains of Arcobacteria are associated with BJD (however if one looks up sensitivity data, cipro is not the most useful antibiotic at least in one study, gentamicin is). Various antibiotics including ampicillin to treat wild corals are being tested. So, at this point, again - IMHO - it's up in the air. My hope would be that something will be found to treat these diseases.

I absolutely agree. I'd add that unless you have at least a basic understanding of how antibiotics work, meaning why some bacteria (gram-positive) are far easier to kill with traditional antibiotics while other (gram-negative) are far more resistent to the majority of antibiotics it just isnt a great idea to use them for an application such as this. I think the vast majority of people simply have heard antibiotics kill bacteria and assume if there's a bacterial infection antibiotics must be very effective. It's not that simple. I'm not saying to thoroughly research every compound in your copper solution but seeing as this is a very important pharmaceutical for humans, I don't think you need to be using it (rather blindly I would assume in most cases).

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

Imagine the day the government decides that applying it for this purpose isn't in the best interest of humans. Prepare for the protest that the federal government is restricting our access to a highly effective antibiotic. It might sound comical to imagine that but surely there will be those convinced the government is trying to reduce the population secretly through (I'm not great at completely making an entertaining but logically ridiculous explanation so I'll leave it for those who spend their days doing so).

 

[MnFish1]

Imagine the day the government decides that applying it for this purpose isn't in the best interest of humans. Prepare for the protest that the federal government is restricting our access to a highly effective antibiotic. It might sound comical to imagine that but surely there will be those convinced the government is trying to reduce the population secretly through (I'm not great at completely making an entertaining but logically ridiculous explanation so I'll leave it for those who spend their days doing so).

What is quite interesting is that various antibiotics have been restricted for human use in various ways because some of them (cipro is one of them) at the time were the only available treatment for certain bacterial infections. The philosophy was reserve antibiotic x for times when it's absolutely needed as compared to just prescribing antibiotic x since it kills everything so the person is likely to get better. It is also interesting that various antibiotics are available on the internet and that people actually take them rather than get a prescription.

 

[livinlifeinBKK]

What is quite interesting is that various antibiotics have been restricted for human use in various ways because some of them (cipro is one of them) at the time were the only available treatment for certain bacterial infections. The philosophy was reserve antibiotic x for times when it's absolutely needed as compared to just prescribing antibiotic x since it kills everything so the person is likely to get better. It is also interesting that various antibiotics are available on the internet and that people actually take them rather than get a prescription.

Actually there are MANY countries that sell strong antibiotics very cheap and without a second though. I live in one.these pharmacy workers couldn't have possibly take any comprehensive or simple even medical course regarding pharmacology. If I wanted Azithromycin I only have to cross the road.... Amoxicillin is no different, and yes, even Cipro as well as others. I don't think most people really understand anything of value obout antibiotics and this it's supposed to be a cure-all or something along those lines.

 

[Reef and Dive]

I honestly hope these crazy cipro - amoxicilin dip ideas might come to an end. For very good reasons (already explained many times in this post).

We were simply propagating something wrong, illegal and harmful (sources for all of that already provided).

Unfortunately, very important treatments that save animals may go together on the same boat.

 

[brandon429]

No reefer at all is plating out bac on selective agar and matching it to an antibiotic which may not be cipro

that combo is what determines course rate and duration and which med among several to use

aquabiomics doesn’t count, that’s not used to define antibiotic courses

so when we read used responsibly, not prescribed by a doc, that’s a stretch


reefers feel they don’t have to follow the rules if the cheat exists


and now since they spent all this time weakening the system with external locus of control approaches, they have less tools and ability to reef without it


cipro addicted reefs are weak, weak, weak reefs.

 

[MnFish1]

No reefer at all is plating out bac on selective agar and matching it to an antibiotic which may not be cipro

that combo is what determines course rate and duration and which med among several to use

aquabiomics doesn’t count, that’s not used to define antibiotic courses

so when we read used responsibly, not prescribed by a doc, that’s a stretch


reefers feel they don’t have to follow the rules if the cheat exists


and now since they spent all this time weakening the system with external locus of control approaches, they have less tools and ability to reef without it


cipro addicted reefs are weak, weak, weak reefs.

Though I disagree with treating reefs without cause with anything - (except a known disease) - there is no proof that the treated reefs are 'weaker'. Just like there is no evidence that children treated for strep throat are weakened with antibiotic treatment, etc etc etc

 

[andyman]

I hate it when you have extremist with no factual data tells everyone what to do. Granted I think I see some merit to what some people are saying about not using anti-bacteria, it really falls on deaf ears when no other reasonable alternative are suggested. Reading some of these post reminds me of another just stop oil protester blocking the freeways and roadways just to "save" the planet.

If my tank is suffering and I have test results showing a gram negative pathegon, I will use cipro to treat it. Now where is that ignore button on this forum?

 

[brandon429]

what do you mean reasonable alternative

I've been reefing for 24 years and never needed it, I co manage hundreds of reef tanks and we don't need it

it doesn't need to exist in the hobby, and that drives development by the crutch nobody needs being gone

don't lukewarm the matter when there's searchable data clear as day that says indiscriminate application of antibiotics is bad, and why

making use of short term benefits in some tanks (but thousands now apply it randomly due to the articles shown) while training every tank using it to produce rapidly-developed microbes well above the norm for tanks that don't use the crutch

the old adage applies: don't get on drugs and you won't think you need them.

I handle RTN and STN in several ways that don't preclude me keeping any sps I want to keep.

nobody in my tank chats will ever use it, need it, we won't even discuss the option, we don't have rtn and stn problems.