Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

[brandon429]

the blank/not sure what to do feeling that is left when cipro is removed as a reefing option was it's consequence.

it had to be removed to feel it though, to feel the impacts of cheating effort.

guess what they're not going to repeal: keeping reef tanks clean in order to avoid rtn and stn issues as well as culling growth to prevent localized competition and surgical guidance of affected areas...common excision as needed.

they're also not going to outlaw quarantine efforts where we don't just buy things and put them into our tanks as vectors


they're certainly not going to outlaw UV sterilizers, for example.

 

[Magnapinna]

I hate it when you have extremist with no factual data tells everyone what to do. Granted I think I see some merit to what some people are saying about not using anti-bacteria, it really falls on deaf ears when no other reasonable alternative are suggested. Reading some of these post reminds me of another just stop oil protester blocking the freeways and roadways just to "save" the planet.

If my tank is suffering and I have test results showing a gram negative pathegon, I will use cipro to treat it. Now where is that ignore button on this forum?

A traffic stop isn't life or death --- this easily could be. The consequences of antibiotic overuse are very real and indeed factually supported. What's unreasonable is choosing to turn a blind eye to something that's well understood to pose a significant threat to human health. There are extremists, and then there are scientists with real concerns to which folks won't listen.

Using Cipro on any random gram-neg infection is like burning your house down to solve a squirrel infestation

 

[Spare time]

A traffic stop isn't life or death --- this easily could be. The consequences of antibiotic overuse are very real and indeed factually supported. What's unreasonable is choosing to turn a blind eye to something that's well understood to pose a significant threat to human health. There are extremists, and then there are scientists with real concerns to which folks won't listen.

Using Cipro on any random gram-neg infection is like burning your house down to solve a squirrel infestation

But there are no more squirrels so what is the issue?

 

[amoore311]

Using Cipro on any random gram-neg infection is like burning your house down to solve a squirrel infestation

And, yet again, no legitimate alternative suggested.

i hope you guys spend as much time petitioning MD’s for overprescribing antibiotics as in this thread. You can walk into 1/2 dozen clinics and say you have UTI and they load you up with cipro without a second thought.

I wonder which practice is actually leading to the gloom and doom scenario. A couple people dosing their fishtank, or thousands of doctors offices across the country overprescribing antibiotics that just get flushed down the toilet.

 

[Magnapinna]

But there are no more squirrels so what is the issue?

Some squirrels will inevitably escape. Possibly most. It takes a long time for a house to burn, providing ample time for retreat. Your house will still be gone. That's the issue

 

[Spare time]

And, yet again, no legitimate alternative suggested.

i hope you guys spend as much time petitioning MD’s for overprescribing antibiotics as in this thread. You can walk into 1/2 dozen clinics and say you have UTI and they load you up with cipro without a second thought.

I wonder which practice is actually leading to the gloom and doom scenario. A couple people dosing their fishtank, or thousands of doctors offices across the country overprescribing antibiotics that just get flushed down the toilet.

The alternative would be things like iodine dips, possibly a UV sterilizer and a strong skimmer, the dosing of bacterial products like eco balance and maybe pns, etc. There are other things to try before dosing anti biotics given that anti biotics can wreck the microbiome of living things.

 

[Spare time]

Some squirrels will inevitably escape. Possibly most. It takes a long time for a house to burn, providing ample time for retreat. Your house will still be gone. That's the issue

So what you are saying is I surround the house with a wall of fire before lighting my own house on fire? Got it! I'll make sure the rodents never see it coming.

 

[The_Paradox]

So what you are saying is I surround the house with a wall of fire before lighting my own house on fire? Got it! I'll make sure the rodents never see it coming.

Thermobaric explosion duh.

 

[Spare time]

Thermobaric explosion duh.

But is that reef safe?

 

[brandon429]

That cipro is now under lockdown and those who did not learn to reef without it are feeling the pinch

meanwhile, those who were never ever ever going to need it or use it in reefing continue on


this is natural selection in progress

genetic lines that can’t handle their own biodefenses don’t need propped up by cheaters anymore, they need culled or the keeper can adapt.

that’s the options


no propping up weak lines or unadaptive reefers, get unlazy.

 

[Magnapinna]

And, yet again, no legitimate alternative suggested.

i hope you guys spend as much time petitioning MD’s for overprescribing antibiotics as in this thread. You can walk into 1/2 dozen clinics and say you have UTI and they load you up with cipro without a second thought.

I wonder which practice is actually leading to the gloom and doom scenario. A couple people dosing their fishtank, or thousands of doctors offices across the country overprescribing antibiotics that just get flushed down the toilet.

If an alternative is what you seek, that's precisely what doctors and veterinarians are for.

Antibiotic resistance is not like chemical pollution in regards to quanity. Regardless, just because we're not the biggest problem doesn't mean we shouldn't contribute; yourself and your family are at the most immediate risk in this case after all, not to mention your tank.

Resistance comes down to evolution and it's a roll of the dice. You may roll less dice, but the fact is all it takes is one unlucky mutation to occur in your tank and that bacteria will reproduce, and inevitably be released into the environment. Nothing is more conducive to these mutations than inappropriate antibiotic exposure.

Funny enough, I actually am a strong advocate against Cipro overuse in the medical field. But even misuse in a medical setting will always be less risky than misuse in a hobby setting.

 

[The_Paradox]

But is that reef safe?

Only if your tank is acrylic.

 

[Magnapinna]

So what you are saying is I surround the house with a wall of fire before lighting my own house on fire? Got it! I'll make sure the rodents never see it coming.

Try again; the squirrels can climb and jump

 

[KrisReef]

It is surprisingly frequent the use of antibiotics on DIPs these days.

Some users know me as a reefer only, but I am also a doctor.

I will not enter the discussion on holobiont and why bacteria are important for the corals…

But I would like to create a HUGE ALERT about dipping corals on antibiotics, specially ciprofloxacin and amoxicillin!

Those antibiotics are EXTREMELY important for human treatments.

I also believe it is not really necessary to explain about natural selection and bacteria resistance to antibiotics, what I consider to be known by most users.

There are many human substances we use for special purposes and I am not against this (fish treatments, fluconazole, in tank azithromycin, milbemycin etc).

But, with CIPRO and AMOXICILLIN for DIPS what we have been doing each day more is very wrong, and dangerous. I’m talking about public health.

We are frequently throwing 2 fresh, active and very important antibiotics down the drain. This WILL (not could) create increased bacteria resistance on the environment. Bacteria resistance is already a very important matter on human health care and those are not antibiotics we could stop counting on.

Please I ask you spread word of this very important problem we can be creating.

Would it make more sense to suggest that people who employ actions like the "KFC dip" for BJD issues, to not discard fresh dip water into the environment, but perhaps keep the water under sunlight conditions and/or add chlorine bleach to the dip container after use to kill any exposed microbes in the container (with bleach) and then retain the dip water under lights until the antibiotics have been photo-degraded to avoid passing on potential super-strains of bacteria that could occur with these types of applications?

This disposal mechanism, if implemented, would provide more positive beneficial outcomes and I believe they could significantly (if not completely) mitigate the risk scenarios that you are correctly warning us to avoid?

Edit: Note, I do not support dipping squirrels or burning down houses under most circumstances, yet the discussion has devolved so that I must mention these scenarios in hope of recovering the beneficial uses of this forum for productive discussions.

(No Squirrels were harmed by this GIF)

 

[Spare time]

Try again; the squirrels can climb and jump

Ah ok, so more fire then.

 

[KrisReef]

Ah ok, so more fire then.

You must have a horrible infestation of squirrels that need treatment?

I hope we find a suitable solution to kill those evil varmints.

Edit, forgot the smiley.

 

[Magnapinna]

Would it make more sense to suggest that people who employ actions like the "KFC dip" for BJD issues, to not discard fresh dip water into the environment, but perhaps keep the water under sunlight conditions and/or add chlorine bleach to the dip container after use to kill any exposed microbes in the container (with bleach) and then retain the dip water under lights until the antibiotics have been photo-degraded to avoid passing on potential super-strains of bacteria that could occur with these types of applications?

This disposal mechanism, if implemented, would provide more positive beneficial outcomes and I believe they could significantly (if not completely) mitigate the risk scenarios that you are correctly warning us to avoid?

Cipro has utility in the treatment of certain mycobacteria, which are resistant to bleach. Though few and far between, some organisms (and their genetic material) can survive bleach.

It would still be safest just to avoid cipro whenever possible. While decontamination can work, at least to some extent, to be completely honest this is more of a process than most people are probably going to adhere to, and any level of cross-contamination will render it ineffective. All it takes is one bacterium to replicate

 

[KrisReef]

Cipro has utility in the treatment of certain mycobacteria, which are resistant to bleach. Though few and far between, some organisms (and their genetic material) can survive bleach.

It would still be safest just to avoid cipro whenever possible. While decontamination can work, at least to some extent, to be completely honest this is more of a process than most people are probably going to adhere to, and any level of cross-contamination will render it ineffective. All it takes is one bacterium to replicate

Granted. Still are we not better off providing precautions iff people decide to use the antibiotics? I have some on-hand and have not before considered any mitigation process when disposing of unused product or reef-water that was exposed in the process.

 

[Magnapinna]

Granted. Still are we not better off providing precautions iff people decide to use the antibiotics? I have some on-hand and have not before considered any mitigation process when disposing of unused product or reef-water that was exposed in the process.

Honestly, it depends. Again, if a single resistant bacterium escapes, you have the exact same problem on your hands as if you'd done nothing at all. The only real difference will be their respective rates of progression. More bacteria will obviously multiply at greater speeds and quantities, but just one will still multiply expontentially and eventually reach the same point.

The antibiotic itself, as a chemical, isn't necessarily the issue --- that will degrade over time. Of course you still don't want to release it into the environment because less exposure = less chances resistant bacteria have to occur. Most quantifiable though is always going to be the primary risk to you/your system.

Sometimes reward outweighs risk. Resistance is a risk even with proper usage, albeit reduced. Hence the importance of professional direction. Using cipro when necessary isn't the problem; the problem is using it when it's not necessary, which is a difficult distinction to make without clinical diagnostics

 

[KrisReef]

Honestly, it depends. Again, if a single resistant bacterium escapes, you have the exact same problem on your hands as if you'd done nothing at all. The only real difference will be their respective rates of progression. More bacteria will obviously multiply at greater speeds and quantities, but just one will still multiply expontentially and eventually reach the same point.

The antibiotic itself, as a chemical, isn't necessarily the issue --- that will degrade over time. Of course you still don't want to release it into the environment because less exposure = less chances resistant bacteria have to occur. Most quantifiable though is always going to be the primary risk to you/your system.

Sometimes reward outweighs risk. Resistance is a risk even with proper usage, albeit reduced. Hence the importance of professional direction. Using cipro when necessary isn't the problem; the problem is using it when it's not necessary, which is a difficult distinction to make without clinical diagnostics

Thanks for the clarification.
For the record, I presume the resistant bacteria is already out there and it remains to be seen, with time, if it will become dominant in the ecosystem or if the weaker ones will prevail even with their susceptibility to antibiotic treatments?

But all that aside, the less we dump into the environment the less we will have to clean up later, if we even can.