OP
OP
Reef and Dive
Valuable Member
Can you send the sources of this info, please?
Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics
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willsaf.ws
Community Member
Please post/share the research I like experimenting on stressed frags and bringing some back is very rewarding!!
willsaf.ws
Community Member
Very interesting b-lactam resistant strains are over come with combining clavulanic acid to the penicillin family.. and amoxicillin is our antibiotic of choice today but it will run it’s course and the augmantins of the world will be our future favorite..
I don’t agree that coral dips should be antibiotic free the limited use pails in comparison with other uses whether in farm animals/humans you could say our impact is unlikely to tip the scale
And new antibiotics are introduced every year -
In other parts of the world antibiotics are OC we worry to much in the civilized world and sometimes I think we live in our own bubble
I don’t agree that coral dips should be antibiotic free the limited use pails in comparison with other uses whether in farm animals/humans you could say our impact is unlikely to tip the scale
And new antibiotics are introduced every year -
In other parts of the world antibiotics are OC we worry to much in the civilized world and sometimes I think we live in our own bubble
JCOLE
Grower of the Small Polyps
No problem at all. This is the paper I found. It is a student thesis but still the first I could find on this bacteria causing RTN with Acropora. Given everything that happened, I am confident that this was causing the issues in my system and the two week treatment of Cipro fixed it.
Naturalreef
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TL;DR……did you bring the UV back online to see if it would reverse the STN? I just purchased a UV sterilizer because I was having Sps brown out and stn for no reason. Parameters perfect, ICP clean, no swings. I suspected a bad bacteria strain.
JCOLE
Grower of the Small Polyps
No. I didn't turn on the new UV until after the Cipro treatment. I do have a Pentair 120 on my system now that is doing great on the new system. Knock on wood... I haven't had any STN since the Cipro treatment
AlexandraDreadlocksPanda
Active Member
I’ll second this, as it sounds like mumbo-jumbo BS from people who don’t understand the chemistry or biological effects of either substances…
JCOLE
Grower of the Small Polyps
A new tool for coral reef disease relief
Scientists have discovered a way to help treat and prevent a mysterious and deadly coral disease.
www.axios.com
JCole
The reason that's impactful to me in the context of this thread is due to the distinction of probiotic/ adding bacteria vs antibiotic/ subtracting bacteria
That's a big distinction. Probiotics don't contribute to building antibiotic - resistant strains and using up med stores that impact humans. Nice post for sure.
The big deal challenge remains that reefers have easy access to cipro (one day to be replaced with any other form of functional antibiotic attained by circumventing the legitimate md- prescribed pathway) *and are willing to use it ad libitum if it helps their anemones* without any consideration of the bigger picture, especially any care of the long term potential impacts to humans. They simply are willing to do whatever it takes to sustain perfect anemones taking the shortcut short- term solution of killing bacteria using powerful medications meant for humans and or specific veterinary indications. It's short sighted and harmful to do this in my opinion.
Check this out: look how much kick back+I don't care attitude I got in this thread, matching the same title of this current thread:
www.reef2reef.com
@Tamberav
The reason that's impactful to me in the context of this thread is due to the distinction of probiotic/ adding bacteria vs antibiotic/ subtracting bacteria
That's a big distinction. Probiotics don't contribute to building antibiotic - resistant strains and using up med stores that impact humans. Nice post for sure.
The big deal challenge remains that reefers have easy access to cipro (one day to be replaced with any other form of functional antibiotic attained by circumventing the legitimate md- prescribed pathway) *and are willing to use it ad libitum if it helps their anemones* without any consideration of the bigger picture, especially any care of the long term potential impacts to humans. They simply are willing to do whatever it takes to sustain perfect anemones taking the shortcut short- term solution of killing bacteria using powerful medications meant for humans and or specific veterinary indications. It's short sighted and harmful to do this in my opinion.
Check this out: look how much kick back+I don't care attitude I got in this thread, matching the same title of this current thread:
Human safety issues aren't rare-discuss classroom reefs, home reef-caused infections in humans. this is an untold side of home reef tanking
Vermitid pokes? Lol I literally grab live rock out of my tank and rub hundreds of vermitids off with my palms and fingers I ended up in the hospital with a vermicide poke on my wrist.
www.reef2reef.com
@Tamberav
Merely reading from my cipro post onward it's neon- sign obvious that any reefer who finds out how easy it is to circumvent the normal acquisition process for powerful antibiotics and learns of the potential short term ability of antibiotics to increase captive anemone health is going to go full steam into it without any regard to a bigger picture, this could be a very dangerous and hidden impact our hobby has outwards, to other people who don't participate in reefing.
It is absolutely clear that the running attitude from posters in that thread, the majority after I made the cipro mention, trended into I'll do whatever it takes to have bright anemones without any real dedicated work. At any cost. That's astounding in my opinion
It is absolutely clear that the running attitude from posters in that thread, the majority after I made the cipro mention, trended into I'll do whatever it takes to have bright anemones without any real dedicated work. At any cost. That's astounding in my opinion
JCole
Why do none of your links show medical doctors stating that widespread happenstance use of cipro by reef aquarists, bought from online pill mills, is wise
Why do none of your links show medical doctors stating that widespread happenstance use of cipro by reef aquarists, bought from online pill mills, is wise
Tony Thompson
Active Member
Thank you @Reef and Dive for bringing up this topic. I have the utmost respect for the profession of medical practitioners.
Excuse my colloquialisms, but I think in regards the USA in particular you are "flogging a dead horse"
Thanks to certain prominent figures within the hobby and the power of social media, that in my opinion has shown little ethical constraints. "The cat is out of the bag"
In many countries around the world, including the UK and greater Europe and other countries in the Americas. We have strict regulations on access to medicines including anti biotics.
We have (controlled) prescription drugs for a very good reason. Not to deny access to the wider community, but to monitor its uses and enable dynamic protocols through qualified regulatory bodies.
Only those qualified and more importantly regulated, can offer prescription and only those qualified and regulated can supply them.
Free market ideology towards important medicines can have serious consequences. that is why regulation must start from the very beginning, production all the way through to application.
With regards ethics in the reefing hobby (not exclusive) You get the same old ethical arguments in the hobby, "what about!" Citing others practices for self confirmation of ones own ethical values is a concerning trend.
REGULATION is what is required not just on this topic but right through the reefing trade. This particular topic has not just implications for the USA but the whole world.
The high profile individuals recently exploring the use of antibiotics, I would hope have at least input from the veterinary or other medical professions involved. Professional aquarists zoos and aquariums as far as I am aware are required through certification of their organising bodies to follow veterinary advice. The use of such drugs in my opinion should be restricted to those in the supply chain who have qualified and regulated bodies to advise and set up protocols. Social media commentators do not have that regulation.
Medicines are a powerful tool and are there to help us, but we need to respect them enough to have our access regulated and monitored. We are all members of a much wider society than the Reefing Hobby, imposed regulation enables the protection of that wider community.
In conclusion I think Alice has already fell down the rabbit hole, sitting at a table of "colourful" characters, with the mad hatter at the top of the table orchestrating the whole affair.
Excuse my colloquialisms, but I think in regards the USA in particular you are "flogging a dead horse"
Thanks to certain prominent figures within the hobby and the power of social media, that in my opinion has shown little ethical constraints. "The cat is out of the bag"
In many countries around the world, including the UK and greater Europe and other countries in the Americas. We have strict regulations on access to medicines including anti biotics.
We have (controlled) prescription drugs for a very good reason. Not to deny access to the wider community, but to monitor its uses and enable dynamic protocols through qualified regulatory bodies.
Only those qualified and more importantly regulated, can offer prescription and only those qualified and regulated can supply them.
Free market ideology towards important medicines can have serious consequences. that is why regulation must start from the very beginning, production all the way through to application.
With regards ethics in the reefing hobby (not exclusive) You get the same old ethical arguments in the hobby, "what about!" Citing others practices for self confirmation of ones own ethical values is a concerning trend.
REGULATION is what is required not just on this topic but right through the reefing trade. This particular topic has not just implications for the USA but the whole world.
The high profile individuals recently exploring the use of antibiotics, I would hope have at least input from the veterinary or other medical professions involved. Professional aquarists zoos and aquariums as far as I am aware are required through certification of their organising bodies to follow veterinary advice. The use of such drugs in my opinion should be restricted to those in the supply chain who have qualified and regulated bodies to advise and set up protocols. Social media commentators do not have that regulation.
Medicines are a powerful tool and are there to help us, but we need to respect them enough to have our access regulated and monitored. We are all members of a much wider society than the Reefing Hobby, imposed regulation enables the protection of that wider community.
In conclusion I think Alice has already fell down the rabbit hole, sitting at a table of "colourful" characters, with the mad hatter at the top of the table orchestrating the whole affair.
Tony that's the most powerful and eloquent and impactful post i could possibly imagine on the matter. We're spoiled rotten and acting that way regarding cipro
@bushdoc do you still hold your original stance/ surely two md's can't draw a fully opposite conclusion on this matter?
@bushdoc do you still hold your original stance/ surely two md's can't draw a fully opposite conclusion on this matter?
Tony Thompson
Active Member
Thanks for the kind words . Unfortunately its probably to long for most to bother reading.
So in conclusion my personal op[inion is.
I am not against the use of antibiotics for coral or aquarium treatment. What I am saying is, it requires legislation and regulation.
Nice to speak to you again Brandon.
The reason I know there are ways to have anemones without using cipro is because this is such a recent trend
In 2003 online there were hundreds of thousands of successful anemone tanks and when a malady struck, nimble reefers got nimbler and kept the awesome pics still coming of how they handled bleach rebounds of withdrawal challenges
Consider Orion's amazing finding that feeding a snippet tentacle 1" harmless take cut from one anemone to a bleaching one fixes the bleached one... zoox transfer via gut/ that type of innovation is the cure to this laziness. More reef pill popping is the decline of innovation
In 2003 online there were hundreds of thousands of successful anemone tanks and when a malady struck, nimble reefers got nimbler and kept the awesome pics still coming of how they handled bleach rebounds of withdrawal challenges
Consider Orion's amazing finding that feeding a snippet tentacle 1" harmless take cut from one anemone to a bleaching one fixes the bleached one... zoox transfer via gut/ that type of innovation is the cure to this laziness. More reef pill popping is the decline of innovation
JCOLE
Grower of the Small Polyps
What are you talking about? I merely posted a link that popped up in my news feed that addressed using antibiotics on corals.
This is at the end
The bottom line: "It's another tool in the toolbox, because we don't really have a lot of options," says Ushijima. "We can save the healthy corals by pulling them out of the ocean, or you can treat the diseased ones with antibiotics. If that doesn't work? Well, they're going to die."
we should not be using antibiotics/cipro for the reasons mentioned copiously in the thread up till now. using pro biotics/sounds great. don't keep anemones if you can't do it without cipro. I wouldn't ever need it to keep anems. its a lazy approach that is harmful, for reasons covered, and use of cipro stifles innovation that reefers would be driven to find were they not given 20 workarounds via online pill mills. there is no way "they'd die" without cipro, that's not a reef tank article. ocean articles don't apply to reef tanks especially in this sense, just like the copious ocean substrate articles don't apply to reef tank sandbeds.
it's well-covered why we should not be taking this shortcut
now we should pool resources and discuss workarounds: how to not need cipro to keep anemones. = our end goal
1. have UV running well before any problems arise: we're targeting bacteria not viruses with this mass cipro effort.
2. attempt to boost good bacteria however you want to do it (probiotic) = bottled bac, prodibio, carbon dosing if you want to boost those kinds
3. like everything else that's evolved in reefing, use observation tanks, don't add anemones to your main system skipping fallow/obs holding in a separate system to observe for maladies before you immediately import it into your main display, then need cipro from taking these shortcuts
4...who else has ideas that can reduce cipro use/bacteriological issues?
now we should pool resources and discuss workarounds: how to not need cipro to keep anemones. = our end goal
1. have UV running well before any problems arise: we're targeting bacteria not viruses with this mass cipro effort.
2. attempt to boost good bacteria however you want to do it (probiotic) = bottled bac, prodibio, carbon dosing if you want to boost those kinds
3. like everything else that's evolved in reefing, use observation tanks, don't add anemones to your main system skipping fallow/obs holding in a separate system to observe for maladies before you immediately import it into your main display, then need cipro from taking these shortcuts
4...who else has ideas that can reduce cipro use/bacteriological issues?
5. be bare bottom. don't keep sandbeds (reef diapers with massive loads of opportunistic bacteria)
bare bottom high flow high throughput is specifically a lesser-bacteria design than dirty old sandbeds we're all copying from one another.
these are the innovation flows we're losing by being on the pill dole for quick anem turnaround
cull out carrier anemones from the supply chain/let them die as natural selection (die in your observation mini reef, not your main display)
I bet there's 30 other approaches we can do to manage bacteria other than meds. curious to know anemone keepers who employ all these methods and still needed the meds
bare bottom high flow high throughput is specifically a lesser-bacteria design than dirty old sandbeds we're all copying from one another.
these are the innovation flows we're losing by being on the pill dole for quick anem turnaround
cull out carrier anemones from the supply chain/let them die as natural selection (die in your observation mini reef, not your main display)
I bet there's 30 other approaches we can do to manage bacteria other than meds. curious to know anemone keepers who employ all these methods and still needed the meds
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