Please STOP CIPROFLOXACIN DIPS and other antibiotics

[Reef and Dive]

A 9 page thread about the efficacy of antibiotics being jeopardized because, maybe, couple hundred people have or may try to save their corals in the future?

the hobby is small, the amount of people who give enough of a crap about the hobby to be browsing the internet researching coral disease treatments is even smaller. the amount of those hobbyists willing to source and try the stuff, after researching even smaller.

Talk about trying to put a wild fire out with a watering can.

Referencing responsible ways and scenarios to use product x, is going to go a lot farther than feeding into the gloom and doom narrative.

I suggest you just try reading and understanding at least the first post.

 

[MnFish1]

For people minimizing the issue - I suggest you try to educate yourselves about how resistance is spread through bacteria - and resistance to one antibiotic can lead to resistance to several others.

 

[brandon429]

Managing Tissue Necrosis | Reef Builders | The Reef and Saltwater Aquarium Blog

While we have come a long way in the hobby and have improved our husbandry skills for keeping corals immeasurably over the past four decades, we still have much to learn, especially in the area of…

reefbuilders.com

There's a hobby teacher, reef sage and published author promoting cipro use because it worked, temporarily.

Reefers don't keep acros that were attained via sexual reproduction which imparts strength to corals via random mutation adaptation.

We all keep and trade asexually produced fragments potentially hundreds of generations stopped from adaptive mutation strength. We trade in weak corals yet want to prop them up with human meds

How about this: let weak frags die if you can't reef without cheating focus efforts on sexual reproduction in stony corals

Trading asexually- reproduced frags for thirty years straight now has a price: pay up, don't cheat.

 

[brandon429]

In the wild, adaptations make corals able to fight these maladies. Weak ones die off, from rtn, removing gametes from the producing line

We circumvent that entire process by trading in corals attained without gamete reproduction and inherent variation given against sickness

We make our corals weaker against all bacteria stressors taking this quick fix route. Temporary wins only *seem* like wins

Amoxicillin is in crucial short supply we all know, it shouldn't ever be used in a reef tank.

 

[StatelineReefer]

I like the part where this thread went from 'Do not use antibiotic dips as disposal in waterways and sewage systems can enhance antibiotic resistance' to 'You're all dumb and bad and wrong for using antibiotics instead of breeding corals.'

 

[brandon429]

Take any and all shortcuts you can it'll help the hobby for sure

Do anything it takes, attain meds without a dr prescription at all costs so our hobby becomes the top focus impulse for using antibiotics

I love how we're able to justify taking shortcuts at any cost, perceived, validated or not.

 

[brandon429]

you were thinking applying it to a full reef aquarium was safer than just isolated dips?

 

[brandon429]

I find it really interesting that nano-reef.com isn't using cipro and doesn't have the issues we post, truly that's amazing how the mass use isn't spread across the whole hobby

they're able to keep anemones and sps without the issue by and large, for 20 years, that's an amazing division between nanos and full sized tanks on the matter in my opinion. stn and rtn is not prominent there. large tanks sit sedentary compared to nano reefs/busy impactful water changes/I've wondered if that lends bacterial skew in an impactful manner

 

[StatelineReefer]

Take any and all shortcuts you can it'll help the hobby for sure

Do anything it takes, attain meds without a dr prescription at all costs so our hobby becomes the top focus impulse for using antibiotics

I love how we're able to justify taking shortcuts at any cost, perceived, validated or not.

you were thinking applying it to a full reef aquarium was safer than just isolated dips?

I find it really interesting that nano-reef.com isn't using cipro and doesn't have the issues we post, truly that's amazing how the mass use isn't spread across the whole hobby

they're able to keep anemones and sps without the issue by and large, for 20 years, that's an amazing division between nanos and full sized tanks on the matter in my opinion. stn and rtn is not prominent there.

Who, exactly are you directing this to? Or is it a shotgun approach to opposition? Stringing words together and anecdotes about different sites doesn't make any of this less off-topic. Even if it sounds 'near topic' to you.

 

[MnFish1]

I find it really interesting that nano-reef.com isn't using cipro and doesn't have the issues we post, truly that's amazing how the mass use isn't spread across the whole hobby

they're able to keep anemones and sps without the issue by and large, for 20 years, that's an amazing division between nanos and full sized tanks on the matter in my opinion. stn and rtn is not prominent there.

I have a feeling that most people with nano reefs do not have colonies that are potentially worth thousands of dollars (not talking about small frags). In other words - in most cases it would not be expensive to replace a lost coral.

 

[MnFish1]

Who, exactly are you directing this to? Or is it a shotgun approach to opposition? Stringing words together and anecdotes about different sites doesn't make any of this less off-topic. Even if it sounds 'near topic' to you.

@brandon429 has never learned to use the quote feature. Which is why sometimes people misunderstand/misconstrue his posts. The fact is, there is a shortage of amoxicillin, and the fact is there is no evidence that cipro makes a difference as compared to other antibiotics. Of course, there may be some diseases in coral that are bacterial. However, from a medical perspective, the LEAST broad spectrum would be the one to use - if any. This isn't just my opinion, this is the scientific way antibiotics are dosed.

 

[Crustaceon]

I find it really interesting that nano-reef.com isn't using cipro and doesn't have the issues we post, truly that's amazing how the mass use isn't spread across the whole hobby

they're able to keep anemones and sps without the issue by and large, for 20 years, that's an amazing division between nanos and full sized tanks on the matter in my opinion. stn and rtn is not prominent there. large tanks sit sedentary compared to nano reefs/busy impactful water changes/I've wondered if that lends bacterial skew in an impactful manner

I wonder if they mention tank crashes as often seeing they're nanos and it's FAR cheaper to reset one of those tanks and pretend the crash never happened than it is with a 180g. It's pretty easy to take a 5g tank, drop in an acro colony and act like it's successful. It's also easy to recreate that effect after a crash and no one would be the wiser. Oh I guarantee they have their issues too. They're not immune.

 

[StatelineReefer]

@brandon429 has never learned to use the quote feature. Which is why sometimes people misunderstand/misconstrue his posts. The fact is, there is a shortage of amoxicillin, and the fact is there is no evidence that cipro makes a difference as compared to other antibiotics. Of course, there may be some diseases in coral that are bacterial. However, from a medical perspective, the LEAST broad spectrum would be the one to use - if any. This isn't just my opinion, this is the scientific way antibiotics are dosed.

I agree with all points. In fact, I have never disagreed with them. I have only used Cipro as a whole tank treatment to eradicate a particularly nasty vibrio infection in my corals.

It was verified by my GP as V. Vulnificus, known to be gram negative and susceptible to Cipro's MOA. Type 2 Topoisomerase inhibition, and a scrip was written and fulfilled by a compounding pharmacist in a nearby town.

Water from this particular tank is not removed, as it is a Moonshiners tank. So disposal was simply keeping the antibiotic laden water in situ for almost a year.

I never chimed in because my story isn't relevant to the conversation. I'm not dipping, ordering mail order pharmaceuticals, or abusing the system.

I just found it funny that the topic went from 'Do not dip, because serious implications' to completely random tangents.

 

[shred5]

I suggest you just try reading and understanding at least the first post.

I have to ask what about erythromycin or Chemiclean that is erythromycin and used to treat cyanobacteria. Would this have the same affect since it is a antibiotic too?

 

[MnFish1]

I have to ask what about erythromycin or Chemiclean that is erythromycin and used to treat cyanobacteria. Would this have the same affect since it is a antibiotic too?

Do you mean could/would it cause or promote antibiotic resistance? Yes. However, Erythromycin is a much older antibiotic - and is rarely used because many bacteria are already resistant to it. Additionally, part of 'resistance' - has to do with the concentration used. (I do not know the 'in water' concentration of erythromycin when Chemiclean is used )

EDIT - the rumor is that Chemiclean was analyzed in Europe and found to contain Erythromycin sulfate. Thus there was some some kind of ban. The formula was changed to 'something else' Various people have suggested that it was changed to a different erythromycin salt - however - As Brandon says below - I do not believe there is any complete proof of the contents @Randy Holmes-Farley

 

[brandon429]

nobody knows what the ingredients are
@shred5

no 'expose' has been done on chemi clean like was done to Vibrant, word of mouth about the ingredients are all we have.

 

[brandon429]

for example: I've never seen nor read any report where a group of bacteria were plated in selective agar, incubated into colonies then killed off using controlled sustained doses of chemi clean/something specific to ID it as an antibiotic

Ive never seen chromatography reports on chemi clean

all the poster reports on the matter are: "I heard from an ex boyd's employee" etc or from statements in the chemistry forum that its likely an antibiotic

*it isn't likely that there's a competing human med need for it like there is with cipro and amox, that's for darn sure, even if it is some sort of antibiotic.

 

[StatelineReefer]

nobody knows what the ingredients are
@shred5

no 'expose' has been done on chemi clean like was done to Vibrant, word of mouth about the ingredients are all we have.

Erythromycin Estolate.

 

[brandon429]

@StatelineReefer

source>? link

I would fully believe it is some sort of antibiotic, it'd just be nice to see a legit source on it. truly all these years it's only forum whispers have seen

 

[Thales]

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