NOT WINNING!! Need some help please!

[TRPlacek]

What was P04 prior to the change? do you recall?

I haven't had a reading of po4 in probably 6 months except for a short time it came up to .02 for maybe a week.

 

[TRPlacek]

You can dose a solution of food grade tri sodium phosphate, or brightwell's NeoPhos.

The increased PAR has probably contributed to it. Possibly pushing you into a high light situation where there needs to be detectable nutrients otherwise you end up with problems. My tank falls into the high light category

This is exactly what I thought may be happening. But I thought maybe just because I'm getting undetectable po4 i was still getting enough throughout the day feeding 4-5 times but I guess I was wrong.
I have seen a lot of people commenting on that NeoPhos. I may give that a try. But for the moment would you recommended I cut back on the lighting until I can get po4 up?

 

[Tyreef2016]

i would deff say its a start. i was leaning towards lights, saw a lot of P04 Concern which is 100% accurate, but if you haven't had p04.

Did you start ramping up the lights then notice the corals bleaching?

 

[TRPlacek]

i would deff say its a start. i was leaning towards lights, saw a lot of P04 Concern which is 100% accurate, but if you haven't had p04.

Did you start ramping up the lights then notice the corals bleaching?

Yes but i don't believe it to be a high light tank. I have 2 radion pros with wide angle lens mounted 8" awl on a 5 foot tank running ab+ currently at 50% intensity for 7 hours with 2 hour ramp up and down. Was at 70% before changes. And the 4 t5s are miro retrofits with 54watt bulbs mounted about 3" awl. Id say it started after I added the last 2 coral plus t5s. But I wouldn't think that would be too much light.

 

[Tyreef2016]

I'd cut the other 2 T5's for now keep the radion at 50% and work on the p04. See what happen. send out for triton in the meantime possibly.

 

[Rick.45cal]

I honestly dunno if shortening the photo period would help. It certainly wouldn't hurt.

If your tank is phosphate limited it may be very difficult to get detectable readings. Daily dosing of trace amounts until the tank balances out has worked for me on a couple of tanks.

 

[TRPlacek]

To throw a wrench into the subject I have been looking to combine both of my tanks into 1 for some time. I was not expecting my coral to be having this problem at this time but I came across a great deal on a 180 gallon and was planning to make the purchase and combine the tanks within the next couple weeks. I would use both tanks rock and water which will be just enough to fill the 180. Only thing new would be the sand which I will do a little at a time.
My question is, would it not be a good idea to make this switch right now for the corals sake?

 

[TRPlacek]

I honestly dunno if shortening the photo period would help. It certainly wouldn't hurt.

If your tank is phosphate limited it may be very difficult to get detectable readings. Daily dosing of trace amounts until the tank balances out has worked for me on a couple of tanks.

What did you use to dose phosphates?

 

[Rick.45cal]

When I used the NeoPhos, I tested NO3 and PO4 daily and would dose what was required to bring the level to .02 ppm. I'd test everday at the same time. In the beginning everyday the tests would come back 0 on a Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter. Eventually there would be some left over fromt the day before and I would make up the difference. Once you have some lingering in the system after 24 hours I would be careful about dosing anymore. I would let the tank try and find a balance. Keep an eye on you NO3 levels too, as your tank consumes the PO4 it will probably also start consuming NO3 at an increased rate as well.

The two tanks that I have had to do this too have both been probiotic tanks with basically run-away bacteria colonies. Essentially the strategy is to burn up the bacterias's organic carbon supply that they use to consume NO3 and PO4 and make that the limiting factor instead of either NO3 or PO4.

 

[TRPlacek]

When I used the NeoPhos, I tested NO3 and PO4 daily and would dose what was required to bring the level to .02 ppm. I'd test everday at the same time. In the beginning everyday the tests would come back 0 on a Hanna ULR Phosphorus meter. Eventually there would be some left over fromt the day before and I would make up the difference. Once you have some lingering in the system after 24 hours I would be careful about dosing anymore. I would let the tank try and find a balance. Keep an eye on you NO3 levels too, as your tank consumes the PO4 it will probably also start consuming NO3 at an increased rate as well.

The two tanks that I have had to do this too have both been probiotic tanks with basically run-away bacteria colonies. Essentially the strategy is to burn up the bacterias's organic carbon supply that they use to consume NO3 and PO4 and make that the limiting factor instead of either NO3 or PO4.

Thank you for this info. I just ordered some neophos.

 

[morpheas]

I have had a similar situation with low to undetectable phosphate and i started feeding conservatively phytofeast all while testing with my hanna ulr. It's a win win, my filter feeders like it and it actually raised the phosphates within a week... Just throwing my experience out there...

 

[Cory]

i dont believe its low po4. Low po4 is good for calcification. Po4 is likely lower in nature than in your tann. But they thrive. Why? Because they got food to eat. Zooplankton, bacteria, phytoplankton etcetera.

Try dosing some coral foods. Try vodka dosing for bacteria. But i wouldnt add it to the tank. Id add 1 ml of vodka to 3-5 gallons pf tank water. Let it grow bacteria, then dump it kin the tank.

 

[TRPlacek]

i dont believe its low po4. Low po4 is good for calcification. Po4 is likely lower in nature than in your tann. But they thrive. Why? Because they got food to eat. Zooplankton, bacteria, phytoplankton etcetera.

Try dosing some coral foods. Try vodka dosing for bacteria. But i wouldnt add it to the tank. Id add 1 ml of vodka to 3-5 gallons pf tank water. Let it grow bacteria, then dump it kin the tank.

I've tried several coral foods in the past that did nothing for my coral and only caused issues such as dinoflagellets which I hope I never have to deal with again. I prefer to use natural fish poo from here on out.
As far as bacteria, is it not the bacteria that is consuming the po4 and no3 in my tank? My tank is nearing the 2 year mark and I have little to no visible algae in my DT which leads me to believe that I already have a healthy population of bacteria.

 

[Cory]

I've tried several coral foods in the past that did nothing for my coral and only caused issues such as dinoflagellets which I hope I never have to deal with again. I prefer to use natural fish poo from here on out.
As far as bacteria, is it not the bacteria that is consuming the po4 and no3 in my tank? My tank is nearing the 2 year mark and I have little to no visible algae in my DT which leads me to believe that I already have a healthy population of bacteria.

While this is all speculation without testing, the reef is nutrient poor but makes a lot of food like pods, shrimp, fish, phyto, bacteria etcetera. The point is po4 and no3 on the reef are removed and turned into living things very quickly. Nothing sits around too long, especially po4 and no3.

It was previously believed that algae was greater in number than bacteria, but the opposite is actually true, a drop if seawater is teeming with bacteria. Iirc there are millions kf bacteria per drop of seawater.

Chances are you wont be able to make enough coral food to save them though. But i wouldnt stop looking for a cause.

Check everything possible. Stray current. Leaking pumps. Alk unstability, potassium, calcium, po4 and no3, nitrite, ammonia.

If you can find nothing, start adding some po4. The po4 will grow some food for the corals too. But i doubt its really po4, youve got a sand bed. They are po4 sinks.

 

[ebushrow]

Do you have chaeto in your fuge? If so, you could remove some of it to hopefully help your phosphates go up a bit....you could also reduce the photo period of the chaeto. I suspect that the alk swing is the main contributor as it has been phosphate starved for some time will contribute as well (as said by many above).

 

[TRPlacek]

Do you have chaeto in your fuge? If so, you could remove some of it to hopefully help your phosphates go up a bit....you could also reduce the photo period of the chaeto. I suspect that the alk swing is the main contributor as it has been phosphate starved for some time will contribute as well (as said by many above).

I do have chaeto but it's not growing very quickly and have thinned it out. I do believe the change in alk ultimately caused the tissue loss and as it has been mentioned I too believe it is contributed to lack of nutrients that my coral is so susceptible to these changes.

 

[TRPlacek]

Update;

I backed off the 2 coral+ t5s and the next day I could tell the tissue loss had stopped. It's been 3 days now and a couple coral have even started to heal. So far I have not had any complete losses and believe the coral with tissue loss will recover fingers crossed. Pests can be completely ruled out. Which leaves the theory of the coral being nutrient deprived and stressed out by the the extra lighting in combination with the alkalinity climbing by .9ppm in a weeks time.

I also got some brightwell's NeoPhos to bring up phosphates but unfortunately ran out of reagent to test and being the holidays it may not be until mid next week that I receive the reagents and can start dosing to see if coral health improves.