How to unstick any seemingly stuck cycle
- Thread starter brandon429
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Hey Brandon and team! I’ve been following your cycle threads for a while now and have a question if you don’t mind. My 20g has been cycling for 12 days at this point. Dr. Tim’s was originally dosed and Dr.Tim’s Ammonia used In conjunction. Tank is able to cycle 1-2ppm (hard to confirm it reaching 2ppm exactly due to the bac going to work fast) over 24 hours. Inbelieve it took a few days longer due to dry rock and live sand being used. Using Seneye I’m able to get NH3 down to safe levels faster than 24hrs. This has been tested against both Red Sea and API tests.
No3- .007 per seneye (was 0.001 but disturbed substrate earlier today) 0-0.2ppm per API/RedSea
Nitrite- 5ppm or so (understand this isn’t important but still test to give all info)but hasnt been observed down to 0 due to ammonia dosing.
Nitrate-10 or 20ppm (API hard to read between two) tho prob rising as there is still Nitrite in system
I have two quarantined and conditioned clowns that should arrive early next week. I expect to see two healthy clowns after addition. After reading Dr. Reefs bottle (fish are actually coming from him) bac thread I don’t plan to add ammonia anymore. I do have a bottle of Microbactr7 that was gifted to me by LFS sitting in my cabinet as well. Is there any reason to or not to dose this now? More bac is good bac right lol?
Do you see any issues with this plan or the tanks history/status? I really respect your opinion on these matters and would appreciate your thoughts!
Don
No3- .007 per seneye (was 0.001 but disturbed substrate earlier today) 0-0.2ppm per API/RedSea
Nitrite- 5ppm or so (understand this isn’t important but still test to give all info)but hasnt been observed down to 0 due to ammonia dosing.
Nitrate-10 or 20ppm (API hard to read between two) tho prob rising as there is still Nitrite in system
I have two quarantined and conditioned clowns that should arrive early next week. I expect to see two healthy clowns after addition. After reading Dr. Reefs bottle (fish are actually coming from him) bac thread I don’t plan to add ammonia anymore. I do have a bottle of Microbactr7 that was gifted to me by LFS sitting in my cabinet as well. Is there any reason to or not to dose this now? More bac is good bac right lol?
Do you see any issues with this plan or the tanks history/status? I really respect your opinion on these matters and would appreciate your thoughts!
Don
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OP
Don nice to meet you as well and your post encompassed every detail and cross check we need to collect here, wow
thank you for matching your observations to the key details we chart here! For sure the new bacteria will swirl around and not contribute largely to increased carry capacity it’s mainly unhelpful to add any more.
Dr Reefs study is largely an implantation rate study where surface activation timing is illuminated for various brands through the proofing of his full water change assessment, the type of bacteria you used so far has implanted by now.
adding the extra bacteria isn’t harmful at all, we spike bacterial colony counts every time we feed the tank but currents and surface area competition well under way will manage the maximum loading of bacteria the rocks will house day to day, adding more doesn’t go right to surfaces once they’re slicked up by existing bacteria at the micro scale level.
adding any bacterial mixes is adding bioload to the tank, it’s already ready to handle bioload that is entertaining to watch day to day.
thank you for matching your observations to the key details we chart here! For sure the new bacteria will swirl around and not contribute largely to increased carry capacity it’s mainly unhelpful to add any more.
Dr Reefs study is largely an implantation rate study where surface activation timing is illuminated for various brands through the proofing of his full water change assessment, the type of bacteria you used so far has implanted by now.
adding the extra bacteria isn’t harmful at all, we spike bacterial colony counts every time we feed the tank but currents and surface area competition well under way will manage the maximum loading of bacteria the rocks will house day to day, adding more doesn’t go right to surfaces once they’re slicked up by existing bacteria at the micro scale level.
adding any bacterial mixes is adding bioload to the tank, it’s already ready to handle bioload that is entertaining to watch day to day.
That makes sense to me! I assumed that it would, if anything, do some eating if nutrients there and then die off without a place to house itself haha. Thanks for the help and will update once fish are in the system for a few days!
would you recommend a first water change before or after fish are added?
OP
OP
A few days after adding is nice timing, matching temp and salinity it probably isn’t impactful one way or another since you have a clean tester to see if your water is able to handle ammonia, it’s just how I would time the guiding water changes first go
Sounds good! Again I appreciate the advice!
OP
OP
Please update us with tank pics several days after adding and carrying the fish, we like to tie in water clarity and support of the system with update pics. I can’t wait to see one year updates as well, we want to know how specific start date cycling fares over the long haul
Can absolutely do that!
zaidalin79
Community Member
Tank updates:
75 gallon has all the fish back in eating and acting fine. Pretty sure they ate those crazy mean hermits but I’m ok with that.
the main tank is still cloudy. I did a water change and siphoned out the sand, have been running the canister full of carbon since you told me yesterday. Fish and corals seem unaffected.
75 gallon has all the fish back in eating and acting fine. Pretty sure they ate those crazy mean hermits but I’m ok with that.
the main tank is still cloudy. I did a water change and siphoned out the sand, have been running the canister full of carbon since you told me yesterday. Fish and corals seem unaffected.
OP
OP
I can see those shimmer lines in that pic, well done for sure
I think it looks really good and to know the system will handle feed will translate as happy animals
a large portion of guiding out algae we expect in new systems before they become coralline-capped can be done outside the tank and it saves you from having to alter overall chemistry to attain guidance for the maturing system
for example if you lift out a test rock and set it on the counter, even if there is coral on it (low tide sim
) you can detail rasp off targets using a knife tip / plaque removal mode and then when detailed clean / keeping the good spots working away bad ones / you can spot apply peroxide onto clean surfaces just like you detailed a giant molar. Rinse off in saltwater, set back one darn clean rock you’d be amazed what a few guidances externally can do while your rock scape is open and accessible like that. A wall-stack system from the 90s can’t have that access, that workaround which can save a lot of balancing headaches.
the peroxide does not harm the rock or filter, it’s simply not strong enough and our contact duration is too short. But it’s long enough to zap green pigments for sure
I think it looks really good and to know the system will handle feed will translate as happy animals
a large portion of guiding out algae we expect in new systems before they become coralline-capped can be done outside the tank and it saves you from having to alter overall chemistry to attain guidance for the maturing system
for example if you lift out a test rock and set it on the counter, even if there is coral on it (low tide sim
) you can detail rasp off targets using a knife tip / plaque removal mode and then when detailed clean / keeping the good spots working away bad ones / you can spot apply peroxide onto clean surfaces just like you detailed a giant molar. Rinse off in saltwater, set back one darn clean rock you’d be amazed what a few guidances externally can do while your rock scape is open and accessible like that. A wall-stack system from the 90s can’t have that access, that workaround which can save a lot of balancing headaches.the peroxide does not harm the rock or filter, it’s simply not strong enough and our contact duration is too short. But it’s long enough to zap green pigments for sure
zaidalin79
Community Member
Any thoughts on the cloudy tank?I can see those shimmer lines in that pic, well done for sure
I think it looks really good and to know the system will handle feed will translate as happy animals
a large portion of guiding out algae we expect in new systems before they become coralline-capped can be done outside the tank and it saves you from having to alter overall chemistry to attain guidance for the maturing system
for example if you lift out a test rock and set it on the counter, even if there is coral on it (low tide sim
the peroxide does not harm the rock or filter, it’s simply not strong enough and our contact duration is too short. But it’s long enough to zap green pigments for sure
OP
OP
If it takes a couple days to clear on charcoal filtration that wouldn’t be a surprise at that size tank, assuming all additions have stopped beyond feeding as usual any precipitation between calcium or or alk dosing is ruled out. At some point if the bacteria simply persist installing a common turbo twist sterilizer sized for the tank has about a 90% improvement rate on posts. That would be my next escalation step if needed, not any type of doser or bacteria those arent getting half the positive ratings on recent bacteria cloud posts
zaidalin79
Community Member
Ok. The only thing I ever dose is alk. Should I stop that? I’ve already got a sterilizer on the tank. It is a year old so maybe I need to replace the bulb.
OP
OP
Before I would continue dosing alk I’d have it’s levels verified by your kit plus one from another hobbyist or pet store using a totally different brand to ensure a true demand / drop rate
calcium and magnesium too, I wouldn’t dose alk alone until big three verified, you’re dealing with rather resistant clouding above on pic 2 and eventually a rip clean like below may be needed to rescue it
common calcium and mag test kits misread as bad as entry ammonia kits, verifying readings and calibrating your kits comparatively will be required for dosing to become streamlined
i wouldnt dose alk until calcium and mag are proofed
we are trying to stave off this much work until you have to but knowing how to disassembly clean can save it if it starts to crash.
at least know the roadmap / order of ops but certainly save it till last, I bet it’s an eight hour straight job to rip clean a system that size.
Messing with that sandbed above in partial means like pouring half a water change on top of it (stirring up clouding) can kill the setup. A rip clean is full commitment surgery to force the clean condition. It is complete and total debriding+evacuation of all extra clouding mass plus all sandbed waste in one pass, so that nothing can cloud further. Our rip clean thread is fifty pages long of this exact job below, save it till last. A rip clean instantly removes the dangerous waste stores so this doom clouding can’t happen when delicate fish and corals are present.
www.reef2reef.com
if you ever spot the fish hovering at top in the early morning or small benthic creatures like micro stars and snails migrating up say around 3-4 am, it’s running diurnal oxygen challenges enough to command the rip clean because that reinstates clear water with no competitive loading, waters that don’t carry an oxygen demand in addition to what the fish and animals command
it’s rather shocking the carbon won’t clear it, plus UV
if there were bac dosers added prior or if the gfo altered microbiology enough that it just won’t comply, it will after a proper disassembly cleaning. The below is the fifty page rip clean thread, for examples of the extreme for prep, if ever needed
www.reef2reef.com
* notice all those jobs are no bottle bac tap water rinses? From our first thread where we align bottle bac dosing only with the initial cycle and never thereafter, we do uphold that rule even during extreme surgery. We are freer to act deliberately and with total resolve if we know the filter bac put up with all our crazy means.
calcium and magnesium too, I wouldn’t dose alk alone until big three verified, you’re dealing with rather resistant clouding above on pic 2 and eventually a rip clean like below may be needed to rescue it
common calcium and mag test kits misread as bad as entry ammonia kits, verifying readings and calibrating your kits comparatively will be required for dosing to become streamlined
i wouldnt dose alk until calcium and mag are proofed
we are trying to stave off this much work until you have to but knowing how to disassembly clean can save it if it starts to crash.
at least know the roadmap / order of ops but certainly save it till last, I bet it’s an eight hour straight job to rip clean a system that size.
Messing with that sandbed above in partial means like pouring half a water change on top of it (stirring up clouding) can kill the setup. A rip clean is full commitment surgery to force the clean condition. It is complete and total debriding+evacuation of all extra clouding mass plus all sandbed waste in one pass, so that nothing can cloud further. Our rip clean thread is fifty pages long of this exact job below, save it till last. A rip clean instantly removes the dangerous waste stores so this doom clouding can’t happen when delicate fish and corals are present.
120 gallon rip clean
I’ve decided to perform a rip clean on my 120 with 100% new water. The tank has been running for 5 years and was battling Dino for several months. I used the bacteria method from elegant corals and worked great I haven’t seen Dino in months now. But I tried several other methods including...
www.reef2reef.com
if you ever spot the fish hovering at top in the early morning or small benthic creatures like micro stars and snails migrating up say around 3-4 am, it’s running diurnal oxygen challenges enough to command the rip clean because that reinstates clear water with no competitive loading, waters that don’t carry an oxygen demand in addition to what the fish and animals command
it’s rather shocking the carbon won’t clear it, plus UV
if there were bac dosers added prior or if the gfo altered microbiology enough that it just won’t comply, it will after a proper disassembly cleaning. The below is the fifty page rip clean thread, for examples of the extreme for prep, if ever needed
Official Sand Rinse and Tank Transfer thread
If you are reading this thread to cure a tank invasion from a link I sent you, we do not need to identify your type of invasion here we do not need you to test anything at anytime regarding nitrate, phosphate etc Above all, we do not need to see a microscope slide picture of your invasion at...
www.reef2reef.com
* notice all those jobs are no bottle bac tap water rinses? From our first thread where we align bottle bac dosing only with the initial cycle and never thereafter, we do uphold that rule even during extreme surgery. We are freer to act deliberately and with total resolve if we know the filter bac put up with all our crazy means.
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OP
OP
Additional brainstorm to prevent need for rip clean: change new bulb in current uv system and add a $175 jebao or entry equivalent from Amazon, for small ponds (over rated for your volume) that value beats the eight hours of a rip clean required and it’s not a 24x7 uv. That new cheapie is for war time then take it offline when not needed.
all this = large tanker problems but you get the good fish as tradeoff so the unwieldy volume and job scale is still worth it.
all this = large tanker problems but you get the good fish as tradeoff so the unwieldy volume and job scale is still worth it.
My old system was close to 140 gallons and never seen a cloudy bacterial bloom in it that my used 36 watt uv sterilizer with used uv bulb couldn't beat up and clear within 48-72 hrs.
My lfs swears by these jeboa uv sterilizers.
My lfs swears by these jeboa uv sterilizers.
zaidalin79
Community Member
That is actually the one I have on the tank. I ordered a new bulb and I added the two smaller ones I had lying around and I think it is starting to look better, so I think the bulb may really help. I also added some filter floss and chemipure in the sump cause I had already ordered it and figured it wouldn't hurt. Livestock is still all fine. Mag/Alk/Ca all tested good as well. And phos are down to 0.25 so yay!
OP
OP
if the new approach doesnt work a rip clean sure will, but its daunting large task at that scale for sure
compared to all we've typed so far nonconforming to any common cycle rule, how crazy does rinsing your whole sandbed in tapwater sound lol = off rocker am aware. but it works so amazing lol, in your case a last resort not because a sparkling shiny reef is bad, but due to 8-10 hours straight work to attain the final condition. your entire system would literally be in surgery all day in buckets, as you're rinsing the sand for 4 of the predicted 10 hours you're thinking: I will never do business with a random internet entity again. this is insane lol.
nobody starts with a rip clean, they arrive there, pressed. hesitantly that's for sure.
compared to all we've typed so far nonconforming to any common cycle rule, how crazy does rinsing your whole sandbed in tapwater sound lol = off rocker am aware. but it works so amazing lol, in your case a last resort not because a sparkling shiny reef is bad, but due to 8-10 hours straight work to attain the final condition. your entire system would literally be in surgery all day in buckets, as you're rinsing the sand for 4 of the predicted 10 hours you're thinking: I will never do business with a random internet entity again. this is insane lol.
nobody starts with a rip clean, they arrive there, pressed. hesitantly that's for sure.
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