Change in Cycling Technique fishless to fish cycle urgently

[ansig]

HI All
I am cycling my second tank a Cade S2 1200 which I started to do barebottom with Dr Tims one and only along with ammonia and wait - which I did nearly 4 weeks and the cycle never really cracked on despite plenty of biomedia blocks etc in the sump (lights, UV and skimmer off).

Unfortunately where I was keeping my original fish til this tank was cycled (a clownfish and some chromis) had to leave town on short notice - so I got some sand for my tank (not live sand unfortunately - it is coming still) and redosed with DR Tim's one 4 days ago as thinking I have to do a fish in cycle now. Fish had to go in last night and all look well this morning. Ammonia is 2+ with no nitrites and no nitrates (API)

What do I do now - do I just wait or do I do water changes to get ammonia down (Ph fine) or use prime to keep it in check

any help greatly appreciated as I am a bit confused
Andrew

 

[Fish Fan]

Unfortunately where I was keeping my original fish til this tank was cycled (a clownfish and some chromis) had to leave town on short notice

I'm sorry, did your fish rob a bank??

Just joking, it just caught me as funny. Don't mind me ;-)

Seriously though, I'm not an expert, I'm sure others will be along very soon to offer further advice

A bare bottom tank is going to take a bit longer to complete its initial nitrogen cycle compared with a tank that has sand. And, for the first 12-18 months you may see some fluctuating levels, and some issues including an extended "ugly phase".

However, a lot of reefers report that going bare-bottom is easier in the long run, easier to manage detritus, and therefore easier to keep nutrients low. Some report that they have to feed extra or even dose ammonia to keep nitrate and phosphate UP in a bare-bottom tank. Some just do not like the look of a bare-bottom, but others say they will never go back.

You will have to consider that certain fish won't do well without sand. In my research, inverts like Nassarius snails that typically borrow in to the sand bed, do just fine without sand, they hide in the rocks. But some critters may require sand.

I have always used sand, I like the look, but I am currently building an IM 25 Lagoon AIO as a frag tank/invert QT tank, and I'm going sand-less for this tank.

As a suggestion, I ordered a piece of HDPE, which is the material they make "plastic" cutting boards out of. I'm going to put that down under my rock in my bare-bottom tank. It protects the glass from damage by rocks, and though you can keep it "clean", some report that it gets completely covered in coralline, and looks great. I went with 1/4" thick black for my 25 gallon tank. For a larger tank, many suggest 1/2" thick, and it comes in white (which is popular for reef tanks) and other colors too. Something like this:

High Density Polyethylene (HDPE) Sheet | U.S. Plastic Corp.

This sheet can be heat formed, shaped, and welded to fabricate ducts, hoods, and much more. The material cannot be cemented, but it is ea...

www.usplastic.com

^^Way too long, I don't blame you for not reading, but to answer your questions more directly:

I would mitigate your high ammonia with water changes at this point. Try as best as you can to match the temp and salinity of your tank, and given that you have only fish at this point, that should work, in my opinion (though concerned for the Anthias).

I fully support and advise a fish-less cycles at this stage of our hobby. But, I'm old enough to remember when using Clownfish to cycle a tank was an accepted and even recommend practice. Although I do think that the high ammonia could potentially damage the gills of your Clownfish, typically they are so hardy that they pull through the cycle reasonably fine.

Your Anthias, I don't know... I like those fish, but I haven't kept one in years... They strike me as a somewhat delicate fish that may not handle +/- 2ppm ammonia, but again, I am not an expert.... Others may be able to offer a more solid opinion here.

Some reefers like these SeaChem Ammonia Alert badges. You can place one of these in your tank as a visual indicator of ammonia, and change water out as needed. Don't be afraid to do a large, near 100% water change, your fish will be fine, in my opinion.

Ammonia Alert - Continuous Ammonia Sensor

Ammonia Alert is an innovative color indication device for continuously detecting and monitoring toxic free ammonia. There's no need to wait for signs of stress or death in your fish or corals to take action against an ammonia spike. With the Ammonia Alert card, you can always tell at a glance...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I'd still monitor the tank with a decent (non-API) test kit for ammonia. Many like Salifert for about $15, or many of us use the Hanna Checkers, about $65 new, or you can find them on sale or even used:

Loading…

www.chewy.com

Marine Ammonia Colorimeter HI784

Ammonia is naturally produced in aquariums as a byproduct of waste produced from your livestock. It is a natural part of the Nitrogen Cycle that maintains balance in a healthy aquarium. When too much ammonia accumulates in the aquarium, ammonia toxicity can occur and seriously affect the health...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

I'll add that I really like the Dr. Tim's Aquatics One and Only, I use it and I do recommend it. But, in my opinion, it's not known as "fast acting" here on R2R. From what I've read, many reefers suggest Fritz Turbo Start as the go-to bottled bacteria product, for when you want the fastest possible cycle. If you felt that you had to add another bottled bacteria product, I'd suggest the Fritz Turbo Start:

Fritz-Zyme TurboStart 900 - Fritz

Rapidly cycle your aquarium in as little as 5 days! Start your aquarium's nitrogen cycle the right way by using only the best live nitrifying bacteria. TurboStart 900 contains proven strains of effective, live nitrifying bacteria in a highly concentrated form. TurboStart 900 reduces fish loss...

www.bulkreefsupply.com

And pro tip - if you can add even a small chunk of "real" live rock from a quality Local Fish Store (LFS), this would be like putting your tank on steroids, in a good way

I hope my reply was helpful, but I'm also confident that you'll get more replies from even more experienced reefers.

As always, I wish yo the best of luck!

 

[Fenral]

Ansig,
I am not sure what you mean by 2+, but if you were doing this as a fishless cycle, the levels are likely long-term toxic to your livestock, which, while hardy, will harm them. You probably should abort: Read several significant water changes in sequence until you get as close to zero as the kits will read. Then, re-dose bacteria and continue with smaller water changes to keep values low and let that bacteria get a hold in your system.

 

[polyppal]

Bare bottom cycles have been a nightmare whenever I've tried it, the sand will help cycle/stabilize things drastically (but it will still take time)

Ammonia dosing likely means its a very toxic environment until it cycles out, I would cut my losses on the salt in the tank, drain almost all of it and add the fish to new water. With a 100g+ tank it will take a while for a couple small fish to ammonia-it-back-up and things might start kicking in on their own by then. No more ammonia dosing!

Fortunately clowns and damsels are pretty tough fish and they'll likely be alright long term if your not seeing issues now.

 

[Fish Fan]

Ansig,
I am not sure what you mean by 2+, but if you were doing this as a fishless cycle, the levels are likely long-term toxic to your livestock, which, while hardy, will harm them. You probably should abort: Read several significant water changes in sequence until you get as close to zero as the kits will read. Then, re-dose bacteria and continue with smaller water changes to keep values low and let that bacteria get a hold in your system.

Huh???

There is so much here to unpack, if I even understand your reply, and I’m not sure I do.

The OP was indicating that their ammonia was about 2.0ppm. This is very typical when you start and cycle a tank. There’s no reason to “abort” at this time, I’m my opinion.

What do you mean by “zero”? Other than ammonia, there’s nothing in this hobby that modern refers strive for “zero”.

Bare bottom cycles have been a nightmare whenever I've tried it, the sand will help cycle/stabilize things drastically (but it will still take time)

Agreed! I admit I’ve never done a bare-bottom tank, but I’ve been around this hobby a long time, and many do run bare-bottom. I’m doing a lot of research now on the bare-bottom tank I want to start. Yes, it may take longer to stabilize, beyond just the initial nitrogen cycle, but reefers have been running bare-bottom for decades, and many love them.

Ammonia dosing likely means its a very toxic environment until it cycles out, I would cut my losses on the salt in the tank, drain almost all of it and add the fish to new water. With a 100g+ tank it will take a while for a couple small fish to ammonia-it-back-up and things might start kicking in on their own by then. No more ammonia doing.

Why do you say this? You seem like an experienced reefer. I get that a huge water charge is a good idea, but the OP isn’t dosing ammonia for the very cutting edge coral care that we are hearing about from Randy Holmes Farley and other much more experienced reefers than I am. The OP is dosing ammonia to cycle their tank. Am I missing something in your reply? I’m genuinely asking

Fortunately clowns and damsels are pretty tough fish and they'll likely be alright long term if you’re not seeing issues now.

Agreed! My bad for thinking the OP had Clowns and Anathias. Clowns and Damsels are the original fish to cycle a tank with, and while I now disagree with this methodology, I do agree that the OP will be fine with these fish through the cycle.

Thanks for your help!

 

[Tamberav]

Use a better bottled bacteria like turbo start. Fritz 9 is also good but turbo start is faster.

I would just get an appropriate size of turbo start for the gallons and dump that sucker in.

Not all bottled bacteria is equal.

 

[Fish Fan]

Use a better bottled bacteria like turbo start. Fritz 9 is also good but turbo start is faster.

I would just get an appropriate size of turbo start for the gallons and dump that sucker in.

Not all bottled bacteria is equal.

Agreed! I’ve said before that I like and use the Dr. Tim’s one and Only, but from what I’ve read hear on R2R, the Fritz Turbo Start is the go-to for the fastest cycle.

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

How far are you from the coast? Could you take a quick trip to the coast? Grab a few handfuls of sand and a couple porous rocks?

 

[littlefoxx]

HI All
I am cycling my second tank a Cade S2 1200 which I started to do barebottom with Dr Tims one and only along with ammonia and wait - which I did nearly 4 weeks and the cycle never really cracked on despite plenty of biomedia blocks etc in the sump (lights, UV and skimmer off).

Unfortunately where I was keeping my original fish til this tank was cycled (a clownfish and some chromis) had to leave town on short notice - so I got some sand for my tank (not live sand unfortunately - it is coming still) and redosed with DR Tim's one 4 days ago as thinking I have to do a fish in cycle now. Fish had to go in last night and all look well this morning. Ammonia is 2+ with no nitrites and no nitrates (API)

What do I do now - do I just wait or do I do water changes to get ammonia down (Ph fine) or use prime to keep it in check

any help greatly appreciated as I am a bit confused
Andrew

Why not leave your fish where they were and wait for the tank to cycle?

 

[JayM]

Water changes to bring down ammonia, then stop dosing it. Your fish will take care of that.
It wouldn't hurt to add some more bacteria.

 

[yanetterer]

If the reading is accurate, then water change(s) can bring the ammonia down. The tank is large enough that a few small fish shouldn't raise ammonia too much and they should be able to survive.

I would try another test kit if you have one easily available. Just to make sure the measurement is correct. People have noted API kits showing above 0ppm when in reality the tank is safe. However, it is usually at .25ppm rather than 2.0ppm.

Was the tank started with live rock or dry rock? Same with the bio media, dry or pre-seeded? If either of those had bacteria on them when put in the tank, you may be getting a false reading (or dosing way more ammonia than needed).

 

[Harpo]

I'm bare bottom and this helped greatly

Bio Reactor 8-24 | Detroit Reef Club

Zero maintenance fresh and salt water biological filter for aquariums up to 350 gallons.

detroitreefclub.com

I also used Tim's fishless cycle and a dose a very small amount of Tim's ammonia and phytoplankton

 

[polyppal]

Use a better bottled bacteria like turbo start. Fritz 9 is also good but turbo start is faster.

I would just get an appropriate size of turbo start for the gallons and dump that sucker in.

Not all bottled bacteria is equal.

Fritz bacs have never let me down

When in doubt, dump one of those $10 2-liter size bottles of Fritz9 in the tank

 

[ansig]

How far are you from the coast? Could you take a quick trip to the coast? Grab a few handfuls of sand and a couple porous rocks?

Hi TangerineSpeedo Thanks for your reply

I live on the coast near the Great Barrier Reef in Australia - wouldn't bring some wet sand from the beach risk bringing unwanted nasties - I hvae often thought about it but scared to create problems

cheers and thanks
Andrew

 

[TangerineSpeedo]

Hi TangerineSpeedo Thanks for your reply

I live on the coast near the Great Barrier Reef in Australia - wouldn't bring some wet sand from the beach risk bringing unwanted nasties - I hvae often thought about it but scared to create problems

cheers and thanks
Andrew

Well, Your probably over thinking it. But everyone has their own method. I live on the coast also (just 12,000 km north). I don't think twice about grabbing some sand, or a few bits of rock. I also use NSW about 50% of the time.
You can always rinse the sand in fresh made saltwater if you are worried, the bacteria will stay attached.