How to Quarantine

[Outdrsyguy1]

Thanks so much for your input on everything @Humblefish , i've really learned a lot from your threads. I have a few questions involving QT if you or anyone doesn't mind giving me some pointers.

1. I started my qt with copper however people seem to use prazipro first, does it matter if I do prazi second?
2. QT location - i am building my dream tank fish room and unfortunately I think the QT will have to be in the fishroom behind the DT. I'm concerned about the aerosolized issues and wondered if there were any suggestions to minimize that risk?
I'll post a pic of my setup in the next post (pics on my phone, not pc). There's a 55g fish QT on top and a 40g breeder coral qt down below. Across from that are 3 future refugium/frag tanks that are connected to the DT system and DT sump is in the front corner of the room on the floor. I've got some of that insulating foam board over 75% of the QT to help with the salt spray in the main area where bubbler comes up.
3. Is there a reason to "lower" the Cu level before transferring to DT? Will the fish leech copper into DT or is it a shock to get clean water?

I have to be careful with the coral qt beneath the fish qt due to splashing water on the light or into the fish qt so I may swap these 2 at some point or try some other solution. Just trying to figure out the best way. Kneeling down to inspect corals once in a while seemed much easier than trying to watch fish on my knees and make sure they are doing okay.

 

[Outdrsyguy1]

Setup currently. I'm open to suggestions.
Dt will be just under 1000 gallons.

 

[Humblefish]

1. I started my qt with copper however people seem to use prazipro first, does it matter if I do prazi second?

There's really no right or wrong answer to this, as there are pros & cons to each. In general, it's best to start out with whichever medication best treats the symptoms you are seeing (or suspect). For example, head twitching usually means flukes (Prazi) whereas scratching typically denotes an external parasite (copper). If you happen to guess wrong then you always have the option of combining prazi + copper - so long as you take certain precautions. If no symptoms are present and the fish generally looks fine, then it's probably better to start off with Prazipro since that medication is less likely to cause appetite suppression over the long-term. A day or two of reduced appetite is the norm for Prazipro, whereas with copper it can be an ongoing problem. Getting and keeping a fish eating is probably the single most important thing to do in QT. Because oftentimes the fish we receive (especially online) come to us malnourished, and that is what makes them so susceptible to disease in the first place. And it is with these fish you will most often see visible physical symptoms of disease, due to their compromised immune system. Well fed fish still need to be cleared of any diseases, but the tricky part is these specimens are less likely to show symptoms due to having a healthy immune system. However, they are still carriers capable of infecting other fish ... mostly, their malnourished or weak or injured counterparts. A DT is only as "healthy" as the weakest link. A sickly fish is capable of eventually taking down all the healthy ones, as parasites/worms are able to use this fish as a breeding ground to increase their strength in numbers. But I'm getting off on a tangent now.

2. QT location - i am building my dream tank fish room and unfortunately I think the QT will have to be in the fishroom behind the DT. I'm concerned about the aerosolized issues and wondered if there were any suggestions to minimize that risk?
I'll post a pic of my setup in the next post (pics on my phone, not pc). There's a 55g fish QT on top and a 40g breeder coral qt down below. Across from that are 3 future refugium/frag tanks that are connected to the DT system and DT sump is in the front corner of the room on the floor. I've got some of that insulating foam board over 75% of the QT to help with the salt spray in the main area where bubbler comes up.

The close proximity of the fish QT and coral QT is a definite problem. As may be the fuge/frag tanks you are planning. For example, an ich tomont could come in on a new coral frag and theronts (free swimmers) get released. Normally this is not a problem (for a fishless coral QT) as these theronts need to find a fish host to feed upon within 48 hrs or die. However, if aerosol droplets were to transport these theronts upwards into your fish QT while no copper was present to eradicate them .... Do you see what I mean?

3. Is there a reason to "lower" the Cu level before transferring to DT? Will the fish leech copper into DT or is it a shock to get clean water?

The only reason is because most fish can only tolerate 30 days of copper exposure. The "old rule" was to run copper for 30 days and then lower it to be sure you knocked all diseases out via an observational period. However, I say it is better to just transfer the fish straight from copper QT into the DT (or an observation tank if you want to play it safe) so long as:

1. You are at the tail end of your QT protocol and all other treatments (ex. Prazipro) have already been done.
2. You have tested the Cu level every single day to ensure it did not once drop below therapeutic levels.
3. The Cu is still within therapeutic range when you make the transfer.

Copper does not actively treat any diseases on the fish; it just prevents ich & velvet from reinfecting. So in essence, copper is just a "shield". And if fish have been in copper for 30 days, ich or velvet will have dropped off long ago and "the shield" is what's protecting them from getting it again. So it makes no sense to drop the shield, especially when you consider one strain of ich can take up to 72 days to release theronts back into the water.

 

[Outdrsyguy1]

So technically the fish QT and coral QT should not be in the room, got it. (gonna be a tough one to sell the wife, i'll have to think on that).
And to top it off, the fish qt needs to be 10' from the coral qt which also needs to be 10' from the DT system lol. That's a basement full of scattered tanks.

Lastly, with regards to copper, I used the seachem cupramine and i am very confident my 55g tank has almost exactly 47 gallons in it. I put in the 20 drops/10.5 gallons very accurately on the first does and then on the second dose but my test kit is a lot closer to .3 mg than the .5 it's supposed to be. I have only pvc fittings and no carbon, just thin filter media in the overflow. Is the test kit off or the solution drops not accurate? Something just doesn't make sense.

 

[Humblefish]

So technically the fish QT and coral QT should not be in the room, got it. (gonna be a tough one to sell the wife, i'll have to think on that).
And to top it off, the fish qt needs to be 10' from the coral qt which also needs to be 10' from the DT system lol. That's a basement full of scattered tanks.

It's a PITA to be sure; but also the only way to be sure.

Lastly, with regards to copper, I used the seachem cupramine and i am very confident my 55g tank has almost exactly 47 gallons in it. I put in the 20 drops/10.5 gallons very accurately on the first does and then on the second dose but my test kit is a lot closer to .3 mg than the .5 it's supposed to be. I have only pvc fittings and no carbon, just thin filter media in the overflow. Is the test kit off or the solution drops not accurate? Something just doesn't make sense.

Which test kit are you using? Only Seachem or Salifert will accurately measure Cupramine. And the dosage instructions for Cupramine are notoriously low-balled, so it won't surprise me if you need to add more.

 

[Outdrsyguy1]

it's a "Sera" brand Cu test. So frustrating to go to one of the premier fish stores in a major US city and get led astray. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that him selling me a cleaner wrasse and recommending keeping it in my qt permenantly to help with parasites was a bad idea also... man i feel like such a noob some days!

 

[Humblefish]

it's a "Sera" brand Cu test. So frustrating to go to one of the premier fish stores in a major US city and get led astray. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that him selling me a cleaner wrasse and recommending keeping it in my qt permenantly to help with parasites was a bad idea also... man i feel like such a noob some days!

Is it this one? https://www.sera.de/en/products/in_category/einzeltests-5589/product/sera-cu-test-copper-test.html

I can't find any info about what the test range is for that product (ppm or mg/L).

Cleaner wrasse will eat dead skin tissue and possibly worms on top of the skin, but not parasites (like ich) that get under the epithelium (outer skin layer) which is out of reach for them.

 

[Outdrsyguy1]

Yes that's the one.
The cleaner wrasse was really working hard on the fish when I put him in and the fish were lined up waiting to be cleaned. After I started copper he pretty much quit picking at them.

 

[Outdrsyguy1]

The sera test goes from 0 to 1 mg/l. see this link for pic of the instruction manual/color chart
http://www.sera.com.sg/acc_watertest_ind.php

So I started talking to my wife about this aerosol thing and she saw me coming a mile away lol. Like trying to strike out Barry Bonds in slow pitch softball, BAM! No tanks outside of that huge room!
So gonna have to accept the risk or do a little outside the box thinking. I'm considering one of those plastic zip walls that could go over the top and seal it with the bubbler providing fresh air and a filter exhaust? hehe. Maybe just put it on the floor and cross my fingers that the airborne water droplets don't fly up due to gravity, that way they couldn't get to the top of my tanks. Course water changes become a pain (no more gravity drain...)

 

[Humblefish]

Strategically placing fans would probably mitigate the risk, but of course there are no guarantees.

 

[Outdrsyguy1]

So to be clear, we can do the 2 rounds of prazipro at the tail end of the copper treatment right? Doesn't make sense to "drop the shield" and remove the copper unless the two treatments combined would kill the fish.

Could also use suggestions on what to feed smaller fish like young anthias and small firefighters size. I'm trying rods and mysis but a most fish are barely nibbling at a few select bits.

 

[Humblefish]

So to be clear, we can do the 2 rounds of prazipro at the tail end of the copper treatment right? Doesn't make sense to "drop the shield" and remove the copper unless the two treatments combined would kill the fish.

Mixing the two might cause a bacterial bloom (cloudy water), but it's usually not severe enough to kill any fish. (Mixing Prazipro with CP is another story. ) However, it would be optimal to do the 2 rounds of Prazipro before copper treatment, that way you have no interaction issues to worry about.

Could also use suggestions on what to feed smaller fish like young anthias and small firefighters size. I'm trying rods and mysis but a most fish are barely nibbling at a few select bits.

Frozen Cyclopeeze, live blackworms (if you can find them), you might even need to feed brine just to get them to eat something. LFS I advise claims his fish (in copper) can't resist Sustainable Aquatics Hatchery Diet pellets. I haven't had as much luck with those.

 

[Outdrsyguy1]

except in my case I had some sort of external parasite outbreak so copper was necessary asap i think. So i'm not sure I could have done the prazi first. I guess that's the one part in the instructions that's kind of a hiccup to the CP or Copper route. If you have to do CP/copper first due to an issue, then you have problems when it comes time for prazi. Almost seems better to switch to the TTM style if you have an ich outbreak early on....
If I do notice cloudy/bacterial bloom water, do I just do like a 50% water change and adjust medicine's to previous levels to match? Or is it just going to keep blooming and more of a wait and see thing?

 

[Humblefish]

If I do notice cloudy/bacterial bloom water, do I just do like a 50% water change and adjust medicine's to previous levels to match? Or is it just going to keep blooming and more of a wait and see thing?

Watch the fish's breathing. A bacterial bloom will starve O2 out of the water. If the water gets cloudy but their breathing remains normal, that means there is still sufficient O2 in the water. But heavy breathing means WCs are needed ASAP or the fish needs to be moved to another QT. Pointing a powerhead towards the surface of the water and/or adding an airstone can help counteract a bacterial bloom.

 

[VJV]

@Humblefish

Hi, hope you are doing well. A couple of questions:

1- I imagine you need to quarantine an emerald crab for the full 77 days given it has a hard exoskeleton onto which cysts may attach. If this is the case what do you feed an emerald crab during this period? Also, how safe would it be to transfer after the first mold?

2- algae: planning on adding a refugium to my next build with some macro algae. Would I need to quarantine the algae for the full 77days or would 3 weeks be enough given the algae does not have a hard surface for cysts to attach?

Many thanks!

 

[VJV]

There's really no right or wrong answer to this, as there are pros & cons to each. In general, it's best to start out with whichever medication best treats the symptoms you are seeing (or suspect). For example, head twitching usually means flukes (Prazi) whereas scratching typically denotes an external parasite (copper). If you happen to guess wrong then you always have the option of combining prazi + copper - so long as you take certain precautions. If no symptoms are present and the fish generally looks fine, then it's probably better to start off with Prazipro since that medication is less likely to cause appetite suppression over the long-term. A day or two of reduced appetite is the norm for Prazipro, whereas with copper it can be an ongoing problem. Getting and keeping a fish eating is probably the single most important thing to do in QT. Because oftentimes the fish we receive (especially online) come to us malnourished, and that is what makes them so susceptible to disease in the first place. And it is with these fish you will most often see visible physical symptoms of disease, due to their compromised immune system. Well fed fish still need to be cleared of any diseases, but the tricky part is these specimens are less likely to show symptoms due to having a healthy immune system. However, they are still carriers capable of infecting other fish ... mostly, their malnourished or weak or injured counterparts. A DT is only as "healthy" as the weakest link. A sickly fish is capable of eventually taking down all the healthy ones, as parasites/worms are able to use this fish as a breeding ground to increase their strength in numbers. But I'm getting off on a tangent now. [emoji14]


The close proximity of the fish QT and coral QT is a definite problem. As may be the fuge/frag tanks you are planning. For example, an ich tomont could come in on a new coral frag and theronts (free swimmers) get released. Normally this is not a problem (for a fishless coral QT) as these theronts need to find a fish host to feed upon within 48 hrs or die. However, if aerosol droplets were to transport these theronts upwards into your fish QT while no copper was present to eradicate them .... Do you see what I mean?


The only reason is because most fish can only tolerate 30 days of copper exposure. The "old rule" was to run copper for 30 days and then lower it to be sure you knocked all diseases out via an observational period. However, I say it is better to just transfer the fish straight from copper QT into the DT (or an observation tank if you want to play it safe) so long as:

1. You are at the tail end of your QT protocol and all other treatments (ex. Prazipro) have already been done.
2. You have tested the Cu level every single day to ensure it did not once drop below therapeutic levels.
3. The Cu is still within therapeutic range when you make the transfer.

Copper does not actively treat any diseases on the fish; it just prevents ich & velvet from reinfecting. So in essence, copper is just a "shield". And if fish have been in copper for 30 days, ich or velvet will have dropped off long ago and "the shield" is what's protecting them from getting it again. So it makes no sense to drop the shield, especially when you consider one strain of ich can take up to 72 days to release theronts back into the water.

The only problem i have with this is that my fish typically come out of the copper treatment very weak and fragile. Putting them straight into the main display with healthy and fiesty fish may be a death sentence, as the new fish gets harrassed and is unable to eat, so it gets weaker and weaker.

There are always pro's and con's to everything in this hobby!

 

[Humblefish]

1- I imagine you need to quarantine an emerald crab for the full 77 days given it has a hard exoskeleton onto which cysts may attach. If this is the case what do you feed an emerald crab during this period? Also, how safe would it be to transfer after the first mold?

Any tomonts should still be attached to the molted exoskeleton, so any crustacean is safe to transfer to the DT after that.

2- algae: planning on adding a refugium to my next build with some macro algae. Would I need to quarantine the algae for the full 77days or would 3 weeks be enough given the algae does not have a hard surface for cysts to attach?

Tomonts cannot encyst upon macro, but there are still theronts (free swimmers) to worry about. Placing the macro in a bucket for 2 days should alleviate this threat, as the theronts will die without a fish host to feed upon.

There are always pro's and con's to everything in this hobby!

To everything in life! I personally have started transferring my fish to a non-medicated HT, post QT, for a little conditioning before entering the DT. You are right, if my fish sense any weaknesses with a newcomer they will tear him apart. Even my firefish gets in on the butt kicking!

 

[VJV]

Firefish Bully [emoji23][emoji23][emoji23][emoji23]. I have thought about having a second HT as well but I believe my wife would bully me even harder than the firefish [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]. But looking at the logic behind it, if we were to drop a fish into a fully medicated tank when we receive it for 2 days and than transfer to a non medicated For the rest of the quarantine, would it work? The downside would be the shock of putting the fish straight into a fully dosed tank. The upside would be it would only be subjected to it for 2 days AND shorten the quarantine process immensely!

 

[VJV]

Actually that would have to be at least 2 weeks to allow any trophonts to fall from the fish and be killed... So not that big of an advantage I guess... May need to revert to having a second HT as you mention and prepare for some serious bullying [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]

 

[Humblefish]

Actually that would have to be at least 2 weeks to allow any trophonts to fall from the fish and be killed... So not that big of an advantage I guess... May need to revert to having a second HT as you mention and prepare for some serious bullying [emoji1][emoji1][emoji1]

Yes, I've been experimenting with just 10 days of exposure time (copper or CP) - but 2 weeks would be better. The fish is transferred while therapeutic levels are still in place, and then observed in the holding tank. Has worked every time so far - on fish with ich, velvet, brook & uronema.