Dinoflagellates – Are You Tired Of Battling Altogether?

[Scubabum]

Sadly, I know how you feel. My first question would be how much are you dosing? Does the dosing amount equate to the level you are trying to reach? Apparently your consumption rate is high which is why the NO3 and PO4 in the tank keeps dropping. Have you been able to identify your consumption rate?

This is the link I used to get an accurate measurement of how much KNO3 I need to mix to achieve 10ppm NO3 (I know that's high, and those dino bastages are PITA)
http://www.theplantedtank.co.uk/calculator.htm

This is the link I use to get dosage for PO4. I am trying to maintain 0.10ppm.
http://www.seachem.com/flourish-phosporus.php

I started dosing double the amount of recommended PO4 and I am yet to reach 0.10ppm. Last night was the best result so far at 0.07ppm.

Best of luck with your battle.

I was a bit confused on the instructions on the NeoNitro and Neophos. I was dosing 4ml in morning and 4ml in evening. Initially I saw my Nitrate come up from Zero to 3ppm and Phos was up to .05. So I thought I was on the right track. I'm up to 10 mls now 2x a day, and numbers seem to be dropping and holding at my current level, which is 1 ppm Nitrate and .02 phosphate. I've been dosing them both at the same time and I'm not sure that is correct. Thanks for the links and calculator.

 

[rockstarta78]

I was a bit confused on the instructions on the NeoNitro and Neophos. I was dosing 4ml in morning and 4ml in evening. Initially I saw my Nitrate come up from Zero to 3ppm and Phos was up to .05. So I thought I was on the right track. I'm up to 10 mls now 2x a day, and numbers seem to be dropping and holding at my current level, which is 1 ppm Nitrate and .02 phosphate. I've been dosing them both at the same time and I'm not sure that is correct. Thanks for the links and calculator.

Sadly Brightwell doesn't have a calculator to make your life easier. Or at least I couldn't find one for you. I'd do the math first and resume dosing. Have you tried doubling your dosage and see if that changed the reading?

 

[Scubabum]

Sadly Brightwell doesn't have a calculator to make your life easier. Or at least I couldn't find one for you. I'd do the math first and resume dosing. Have you tried doubling your dosage and see if that changed the reading?

I will try to double up my dose. Might place an order for the products you are using. Looks like you're almost at the target levels. Thanks for you help.

 

[OnPointCorals]

Sadly Brightwell doesn't have a calculator to make your life easier. Or at least I couldn't find one for you. I'd do the math first and resume dosing. Have you tried doubling your dosage and see if that changed the reading?

NEOPHOS reads:

1 ml NEOPHOS will increase the phosphate concentration in 1 US-gallon (~3.8 L) by ~1.2 ppm; 1 drop from plastic bulb pipette (enclosed within bottle) will increase the concentration in the same volume of water by ~0.06 ppm.


This should help.

 

[rockstarta78]

NEOPHOS reads:

1 ml NEOPHOS will increase the phosphate concentration in 1 US-gallon (~3.8 L) by ~1.2 ppm; 1 drop from plastic bulb pipette (enclosed within bottle) will increase the concentration in the same volume of water by ~0.06 ppm.


This should help.

Thank you. I guess @Scubabum could use 10ml/gallon to get roughly around 10ppm NO3. And go from there.

 

[OnPointCorals]

Thank you. I guess @Scubabum could use 10ml/gallon to get roughly around 10ppm NO3. And go from there.

No. What I provided was for the phosphate dosing.

 

[Scubabum]

No. What I provided was for the phosphate dosing.

Thanks for the instructions. I'm not the greatest at math. If my current level is .02 ppm in a 120 gallons and if 1ml will raise 1.2ppm per gallon. How much should I dose to raise my phosphate from .02ppm to .1 ppm??? If possible can you show me how you did the math. Thanks in advance.

 

[Reefer1978]

I started my tank from scratch and still got dinos. Dry rock, dry sand, fresh rodi system and cycled with zeovit, and still got dinos. So if you do a full reset, you may still get the same problem if you stay ULNS from the start. It happened to me, just my 2 cents.

You don't get dinos by starting a ULNS system from scratch, plenty of reefers do it and don't have dinos. You get dinos by running ULNS and somehow introducing them into your system, i.e. some re-used components, sand/rock or tools, etc, and bringing them into the fresh tank with the livestock that's infected. What do you think did it if you had to guess?

 

[OnPointCorals]

Thanks for the instructions. I'm not the greatest at math. If my current level is .02 ppm in a 120 gallons and if 1ml will raise 1.2ppm per gallon. How much should I dose to raise my phosphate from .02ppm to .1 ppm??? If possible can you show me how you did the math. Thanks in advance.

I will leave this for others that are stronger in the math arena .

 

[Beardo]

Thanks for reports, even bad news is good information.
Sounds like you have quite the Dino zoo going. Can't wait to see pics.

I'm not sure if I'm leaning more toward the UV being undersized at 55w on a 270 gal or that it stopped working entirely.

If you are doing a new tank reset to get a Dino free system, I think it's highly unlikely you'll succeed long term, but if you are starting up a system to seed it with healthy biodiversity to make dinos fight an uphill battle, it might be helpful.

Here are a couple pics. Please excuse the quality, I'm still trying to get used to taking pics through the microscope eyepiece. I also have some videos, if you are interested I can post them but be be forewarned they are shakey.

 

[rockstarta78]

Thanks for the instructions. I'm not the greatest at math. If my current level is .02 ppm in a 120 gallons and if 1ml will raise 1.2ppm per gallon. How much should I dose to raise my phosphate from .02ppm to .1 ppm??? If possible can you show me how you did the math. Thanks in advance.

0.02ppm PO4 is essentially 0ppm PO4. So it's safe to say you have no PO4 in your tank, due to error in HANNA checker (not your fault). So for you to get 0.10ppm PO4

For 1gl of water
to get 1.2ppm dose 1ml
to get 1 ppm dose 1/1.2
to get 0.10 ppm dose (1/1.2) * 0.10 = 0.0833ml

for 120gl of water 0.0833 * 120 = 9.996ml

I'd start with 10ml/day.

I think my math is right.

 

[rockstarta78]

Big news I finally hit 10ppm NO3 and 0.12ppm PO4. There's so much GHA growing. I never thought I'd be happy to see GHA. I'm going to let hair algae run wild for few days. Gong to dose half amount.

 

[taricha]

Here are a couple pics. Please excuse the quality, I'm still trying to get used to taking pics through the microscope eyepiece. I also have some videos, if you are interested I can post them but be be forewarned they are shakey.

exactly like you said - first close-up is ostreopsis (sesame seed), last close-up is coolia (round - also the low power shot is this one plus 2 forms of pennate diatoms) ...

And this one is prorocentrum (oval).

These kinds all have and do respond to UV in other people's systems.
To address what @mcarroll was saying earlier, about your UV being well-rated for the size - the manufacturers ratings are based on tiny bacteria and 5 micron greenwater (microalgae) - not based on our massive 60 micron armored dinos. so I don't know how good their guidance is.
If your issue is power, then just based on a handful of anecdotes 2 gallons per UVwatt is enough, and based on you - 5 gallons per watt maybe isn't. I had kinda spitballed 3gal per watt as a minimum wattage number to maybe go for - but I haven't seen enough reports to have any confidence. And maybe your UV stopped working at all? The small tank test should provide some guidance there.
I did a test once with ostreopsis - poured them through a 24W UV (the pour was slower flow than normal operation) to see if it was a one-trip kill, in which case the only issue would be getting the dinos to go through. The ostis were still swimming happily immediately after as well as 24 hours later. It's only one very unscientific test, but I suspect this means the damage is done by repeated accumulated oxidative stress from multiple trips through the UV.
And maybe it doesn't kill them at all - maybe they just spend all their energy repairing the oxidative damage that they can't thrive. I dunno. [edit: actually multiple reports of ostis disappearing in less than 3 days "overnight" as some claim - means that the effect is stronger than just not being able to grow and thrive anymore]
but I know the prorocentrum and coolia are strongly reduced, and ostis are pushed to near oblivion by properly functioning UV.

 

[taricha]

one more thing I'll point out in @Beardo photos just cuz I think it's cool...
Check out the color differences
Coolia are darkish brown. Prorocentrum are a light golden tan almost green by comparison, and ostreopsis are a medium golden brown in between the two.
I've seen this color contrast in my systems, but never seen anyone else with side to side pics showing same thing.
I think these dinos all have same photosynthetic protein peridinin, so maybe it's just geometry of chloroplasts? I dunno.

 

[Beardo]

exactly like you said - first close-up is ostreopsis (sesame seed), last close-up is coolia (round - also the low power shot is this one plus 2 forms of pennate diatoms) ...

And this one is prorocentrum (oval).

These kinds all have and do respond to UV in other people's systems.
To address what @mcarroll was saying earlier, about your UV being well-rated for the size - the manufacturers ratings are based on tiny bacteria and 5 micron greenwater (microalgae) - not based on our massive 60 micron armored dinos. so I don't know how good their guidance is.
If your issue is power, then just based on a handful of anecdotes 2 gallons per UVwatt is enough, and based on you - 5 gallons per watt maybe isn't. I had kinda spitballed 3gal per watt as a minimum wattage number to maybe go for - but I haven't seen enough reports to have any confidence. And maybe your UV stopped working at all? The small tank test should provide some guidance there.
I did a test once with ostreopsis - poured them through a 24W UV (the pour was slower flow than normal operation) to see if it was a one-trip kill, in which case the only issue would be getting the dinos to go through. The ostis were still swimming happily immediately after as well as 24 hours later. It's only one very unscientific test, but I suspect this means the damage is done by repeated accumulated oxidative stress from multiple trips through the UV.
And maybe it doesn't kill them at all - maybe they just spend all their energy repairing the oxidative damage that they can't thrive. I dunno. [edit: actually multiple reports of ostis disappearing in less than 3 days "overnight" as some claim - means that the effect is stronger than just not being able to grow and thrive anymore]
but I know the prorocentrum and coolia are strongly reduced, and ostis are pushed to near oblivion by properly functioning UV.

Thanks for the confirmation on the IDs. I was leaning towards one of the prorocentrum species on the oval but wasn't certain. There is still the small species I haven't been able to identify. I haven't been able to get clear picture even at 800X magnification but will continue to try. Coolia is the most prevalent in the samples I have collected with the unidentified species a close second and Ostreopsis and Procrocentrum both being relatively low in numbers (small sample size). I turkey basted the rocks with all the pumps off and let everything rise to the surface to collect the samples so not surprised there is a plethora of other algae and various other life in the samples. The closeup of the coolia was from a scraping off the glass and there were also encysted dinos in that sample.

As far as the UV, it has been functioning fine, as far as I can tell. I replace the bulb once a year as is recommended and verify it is functioning (the AquaUV is designed to be able to see the glow of the bulb from the cord end). Even when new, it didn't get rid of dinos in my 240g I used to have. We will see how it does on the small tank; though I did do a 30 second low salinity dip (1.010 - 1.011) which should instantly kill non-encysted dinos, followed by a peroxide dip (8:1 water to peroxide ratio) and scrubbing any rock or frag plug with a toothbrush, followed by a rinse in fresh saltwater prior to placing the corals in the treatment/holding tank. I was testing various types of corals and a few that were in bad shape and weren't going to make it much longer in the display, to see how they respond to the dips. The UV is just to clean up any that may have made it through.

Sorry I am taking this thread off the original topic...again

I will continue to maintain the recommended nutrient levels in the display tank during this drawn out process just to see how it responds.

 

[mcarroll]

the manufacturers ratings are based on tiny bacteria and 5 micron greenwater (microalgae) - not based on our massive 60 micron armored dinos. so I don't know how good their guidance is.

I certainly wish there were more generic UV guidelines we could all refer to so this would all be more settled info.....every mfgr is different though, and report different "sizes" and "capabilities".

Also, watts are not necessarily a good guideline because distance from the UV source makes a difference....and not all UV's are built with the same diameter housings.

If you look at that AquaUV sizing guide I linked, they give power ranges to target – e.g. 30,000 µW/cm2 up to 90,000 µW/cm2 – by tuning in a specific flow rate.

The target power ranges on that guide roughly correspond to the range of microbes from tiny bacteria at the lower end up to more complex microbes (like our dino's) at the high end of the range.

Discounting data provided by the mfgr's, I really have had no luck finding data where effectiveness of UV has actually been tested on specific organisms. So as far as I know, nobody really knows what the minimum effective dose is for dino's.

[edit: actually multiple reports of ostis disappearing in less than 3 days "overnight" as some claim - means that the effect is stronger than just not being able to grow and thrive anymore]

It's not just killing off the live cells, but other factors like having to overcome their rate of producing new cells too.

Sorry I am taking this thread off the original topic...again

Seems on topic! I appreciate that you're keeping the updates rolling in! Thanks and keep up the good work!! It will pay off!!!

 

[Beardo]

Seems on topic! I appreciate that you're keeping the updates rolling in! Thanks and keep up the good work!! It will pay off!!!

I thought my discussion on other steps I was taking when moving corals out of the tank was straying off the topic of maintaining nutrient levels, just trying to respect your thread. Appreciate all your assistance and will I will keep updating.

 

[mcarroll]

I thought my discussion on other steps I was taking when moving corals out of the tank was straying off the topic of maintaining nutrient levels, just trying to respect your thread. Appreciate all your assistance and will I will keep updating.

Well you know....there's room for some of whatever.

If it was tomes and tomes of info it would be different and it would make sense for the info to be in its own thread and for just the thread to be linked here.....much easier reading on both ends that way.

 

[jason2459]

UV has not effected my Alexandrium dinoflagellates. I have played with flow rates around 1000, 900, 800, 700, 600, 500, 400, 300, 200, and for several weeks now 100 gph. I do not have the UV hooked up to the display. Only in my sump. Display tank utilization I would think is optimal and ran at night at minimum if not 24/7 while keeping surfaces blown off.

56watt AquaUV on my 180.

It's also surviving That UV with 220mg/h ozone running recently.

It also does just fine in the dark.
https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/our-tanks-biology-up-close.239838/page-34#post-3950243


Seems very resilient.

 

[mcarroll]

Seems very resilient.

400 million years+ and still going strong!