Cycling an Aquarium

brandon429 · Apr 21, 2020

Wow that is true confirmation

liferocks have all inclusions necessary, painted on bac plus bac feed, and self activate within about twelve days underwater. Your chart seems to confirm, only what ammonia does matters and yours passes, it went down, nitrate is for algae tuning. Nitrite doesn't factor at all. Your cycle is fully completely done. The ability to carry bioload is now modulated by surface area availability and not whether bacteria are there, or ready.

Brew12 · Apr 21, 2020

ifunk said:
Hi everyone,
I began cycling a 130 gallon tank with Caribsea Liferock on March 30 and was wondering if these parameters made sense... I had expected nitrate to go higher. I've never done a water change on this tank and only have filter floss and biofiltration going.
I've been dosing bacteria since day 1. (Dr. Tims One and Only, Aquavitro Seed, and MicroBacter7... not all at once)
I'm using Red Sea Marine Care test kit.
Any insight? Thanks!

Nitrate didn't actually increase at the beginning, that was a false reading from your nitrites. As your nitrites dropped your nitrates increased. Since you added very little ammonia, you ended up with very little nitrate.

Sparent25 · Apr 23, 2020

I set up a small 2.6g Fluval with live sand and Nutri Seawater (has bacteria), dry rock and only using the tank for corals should I dry feed and start cycle or since there will never be fish just free to add corals now?? Or since I have live sand and water it’s already ready and cycled?

Brew12 · Apr 23, 2020

Sparent25 said:
I set up a small 2.6g Fluval with live sand and Nutri Seawater (has bacteria), dry rock and only using the tank for corals should I dry feed and start cycle or since there will never be fish just free to add corals now?? Or since I have live sand and water it’s already ready and cycled?

I wouldn't worry about it being cycled, but it may not be ready for coral, either. If you put some zoanthids or other hardy coral they might be fine right now. I would let the system mature for awhile before adding acros.

AquaBiomics · Apr 23, 2020

Sparent25 said:
I set up a small 2.6g Fluval with live sand and Nutri Seawater (has bacteria), dry rock and only using the tank for corals should I dry feed and start cycle or since there will never be fish just free to add corals now?? Or since I have live sand and water it’s already ready and cycled?

Forgive me if I rant about unfounded manufacturers claims for a moment. This is in no way intended as a criticism of your post.

My goodness, now theyre claiming to sell water with bacteria already in it? I thought the unfounded claims about "live sand" (thats been in a bag on the shelf for months) and "rock with bacteria embedded in them" (LOL) would have burst this bubble, but now they're actually selling water they claim has bacteria in it?

Undoubtedly all these products have "some" bacteria in them, just like the doorknob and the toilet seat do. Doesnt mean they have *any* of the useful ones, let alone *enough* of them.

Consider this:

The water on a healthy coral reef in nature has at least several hundred different kinds of bacteria, as measured by DNA sequencing.
The water in an established reef tank also has several hundred different kinds of bacteria.
>99% of marine bacteria cannot be cultured.
Bottled products I've tested contain about 0-10 different types of bacteria, and I've found no evidence yet that any of these survive once placed in the aquarium.

Given these info, I hope the reader may understand my frustration with unfounded manufacturers claims about products like artificial rock "seeded with bacteria" or (this was a new one to me, which prompted this rant) water that "already contains the necessary bacteria".

Would we purchase a calcium supplement when the ingredients don't list calcium and the manufacturer provides no evidence it contains calcium? So why does the hobby spend millions upon millions of dollars on products that offer the same level of evidence?

----

With that rant out of my system, I would suggest this for cycling your tank.

Ignore all manufacturer claims without evidence. Get some live rock or live sand that came from the ocean or an established tank. Put it in your tank and wait 2 weeks, and if it was real live rock or sand in the first place your tank will be cycled.

If youd like to confirm that its cycled I suggest you dose ammonia to 1-2 ppm and measure how long it takes to drop back to zero (make sure to keep the lights off during this test to avoid algal growth and algal uptake of ammonia).

Good luck

Brew12 · Apr 23, 2020

AquaBiomics said:
Forgive me if I rant about unfounded manufacturers claims for a moment. This is in no way intended as a criticism of your post.

My goodness, now theyre claiming to sell water with bacteria already in it? I thought the unfounded claims about "live sand" (thats been in a bag on the shelf for months) and "rock with bacteria embedded in them" (LOL) would have burst this bubble, but now they're actually selling water they claim has bacteria in it?

Undoubtedly all these products have "some" bacteria in them, just like the doorknob and the toilet seat do. Doesnt mean they have *any* of the useful ones, let alone *enough* of them.

Consider this:

The water on a healthy coral reef in nature has at least several hundred different kinds of bacteria, as measured by DNA sequencing.

The water in an established reef tank also has several hundred different kinds of bacteria.

>99% of marine bacteria cannot be cultured.

Bottled products I've tested contain about 0-10 different types of bacteria, and I've found no evidence yet that any of these survive once placed in the aquarium.

Given these info, I hope the reader may understand my frustration with unfounded manufacturers claims about products like artificial rock "seeded with bacteria" or (this was a new one to me, which prompted this rant) water that "already contains the necessary bacteria".

Would we purchase a calcium supplement when the ingredients don't list calcium and the manufacturer provides no evidence it contains calcium? So why does the hobby spend millions upon millions of dollars on products that offer the same level of evidence?

----

With that rant out of my system, I would suggest this for cycling your tank.

Ignore all manufacturer claims without evidence. Get some live rock or live sand that came from the ocean or an established tank. Put it in your tank and wait 2 weeks, and if it was real live rock or sand in the first place your tank will be cycled.

If youd like to confirm that its cycled I suggest you dose ammonia to 1-2 ppm and measure how long it takes to drop back to zero (make sure to keep the lights off during this test to avoid algal growth and algal uptake of ammonia).

Good luck

I actually like the concept of the Nutri-SeaWater. This is water taken from the ocean and only slightly filtered in an effort to maintain the oceans plankton and bacteria. If you don't have access to a diverse established system to get live rock from I would at least consider this product.
I do agree with you in general about most live rock and sand that is seeded with one or a few strains of bacteria. I don't see much value in that. I think that is much different than water pulled directly from the ocean.

I'm not sure if you saw, but the person you replied to was not planning on adding fish, only coral. Do you feel there is a benefit to cycling the tank with ammonia? Wouldn't purposely cycling the tank be causing the bacteria to compete with the coral since at least some coral can uptake ammonia directly?

taricha · Apr 24, 2020

AquaBiomics said:
>99% of marine bacteria cannot be cultured.

Bottled products I've tested contain about 0-10 different types of bacteria, and I've found no evidence yet that any of these survive once placed in the aquarium.

wow, interesting!
Would you care to give us a ballpark of how many bottled products that you looked at?

Dan_P · Apr 24, 2020

AquaBiomics said:
Forgive me if I rant about unfounded manufacturers claims for a moment. This is in no way intended as a criticism of your post.

My goodness, now theyre claiming to sell water with bacteria already in it? I thought the unfounded claims about "live sand" (thats been in a bag on the shelf for months) and "rock with bacteria embedded in them" (LOL) would have burst this bubble, but now they're actually selling water they claim has bacteria in it?

Undoubtedly all these products have "some" bacteria in them, just like the doorknob and the toilet seat do. Doesnt mean they have *any* of the useful ones, let alone *enough* of them.

Consider this:

The water on a healthy coral reef in nature has at least several hundred different kinds of bacteria, as measured by DNA sequencing.

The water in an established reef tank also has several hundred different kinds of bacteria.

>99% of marine bacteria cannot be cultured.

Bottled products I've tested contain about 0-10 different types of bacteria, and I've found no evidence yet that any of these survive once placed in the aquarium.

Given these info, I hope the reader may understand my frustration with unfounded manufacturers claims about products like artificial rock "seeded with bacteria" or (this was a new one to me, which prompted this rant) water that "already contains the necessary bacteria".

Would we purchase a calcium supplement when the ingredients don't list calcium and the manufacturer provides no evidence it contains calcium? So why does the hobby spend millions upon millions of dollars on products that offer the same level of evidence?

----

With that rant out of my system, I would suggest this for cycling your tank.

Ignore all manufacturer claims without evidence. Get some live rock or live sand that came from the ocean or an established tank. Put it in your tank and wait 2 weeks, and if it was real live rock or sand in the first place your tank will be cycled.

If youd like to confirm that its cycled I suggest you dose ammonia to 1-2 ppm and measure how long it takes to drop back to zero (make sure to keep the lights off during this test to avoid algal growth and algal uptake of ammonia).

Good luck

Sometimes a rant is good for the soul! Sometimes, it stimulates conversation.

I suspect no manufacturer can or would supply data to support their product claims (Can you think of one in this hobby?). I suspect the main reason is not because the information is a trade secret but because the information would raise more questions than convince potential buyers. It is better to have consumers use their imagination as to how, why and whether the product works than have them start thinking!

@brandon429 has feelings about the need for bottled bacteria that broadly parallels yours.

Interestingly, I am attempting to culture some famous bottled bacteria under aquarium conditions right now.

brandon429 · Apr 24, 2020

# of reefs I have skip cycled (advanced the required date on all online cycling charts) using bottle bac is too many to count, several recent ones on file. Im 100% certain that many companies have produced a product that allows all joes and janes to input sand, water, rock, two clowns, eighteen bucks in bac, and skip the entire cycle.

do the setup minus the bac:

dead clowns tomorrow, cloudy water. floaters.

the fish are not ammonia burned in common fish-in cycle threads, that condition has them acting in ways easily discerned. Fish that swim, eat normally aren't not burned. we can list symptoms of ammonia toxicity that never require a non seneye test kit's eval...we have ways of assessing bottle bac having nothing to do with a test lab.

we're spreading disease better than the 70s (license to skip fallow for everyone?)

but its not burning fish.

The number two thing I would testify if shackled in a reef court of law is that bottle bac works to this degree:

Bacteria in a bottle, Myth or Fact

Not the saltwater version, but I did use Fritz freshwater version, dumped a bottle into 40 gallons, put in 10 Zebra danios and, never had either ammonia or nitrite on any test I did in the first month, and no fish died, so seemed to have worked.

www.reef2reef.com

after forty years of straight research into sludge digestion and all forms of commutable microbial benefit, my question to them all is what took you so long. we could have been skip cycling all the 90s vs the 30 day snail mail version of cycling. that you finally arrived here a few years ago is too late, its not awesome. other industries had you beat to the punch in 1968.

brandon429 · Apr 24, 2020

having such success in bottle bac then just doing that in a bag of water (all wet caribsea sand) is terribly easy.

they should be pre rinsing that stuff though. to transmit bac around in hydrated inoculated water that certainly instantly controls ammonia is easy.

drknudsenx2 · Apr 24, 2020

Woohoo! I have finally gotten nitrites down to 0.5 mg/L and nitrates are 10 mg/L. What are next steps? Tank has been cycling for 7-8 weeks. Should I dose ammonia to 2ppm and monitor? Should I do a water change? Or ok to add my quarantined fish?

brandon429 · Apr 25, 2020

Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

@Dan_P
thats the best bottle bac ability thread Ive seen. day 1 dry start $200 anemone

and thats not even fritz, bio spira is lower end but possibly not in measurable benefit.

fritz $ bottle bac, costliest one, has been tested in Dr. Reefs thread above to adhere to surfaces and be immune to systemic 100% water changes (fast transition suspended to benthic) within a day.

brandon429 · Apr 25, 2020

drknudsenx2

Your tank is fully cycled and cannot be partially cycled. change a lot of water, and begin with your selected bioload.

(7-8 weeks, all common cycles are done, can control ammonia. reef tank conventions must start with nobody getting a 1.5 month prep, gotta make all display reefs ready by friday wo delay)

canadianeh · Apr 25, 2020

I am setting up new tank. I put in caribsea purple life rock and RODI water. Heater in and still at 72 F so far. Looking to get it to 78F. I am starting to mix the Tropic Marin salt in slowly. Skimmer is on.

My questions are:
-can I put in ammonia and Dr Tim’s now? Or should I wait until the temperature is reached and salinity is set to 1.0025 or 1.0026?
- can I leave the skimmer on during the whole cycle to break in?

I plan to leave the light off the whole time.
Thanks

Brew12 · Apr 25, 2020

canadianeh said:
I am setting up new tank. I put in caribsea purple life rock and RODI water. Heater in and still at 72 F so far. Looking to get it to 78F. I am starting to mix the Tropic Marin salt in slowly. Skimmer is on.

My questions are:
-can I put in ammonia and Dr Tim’s now? Or should I wait until the temperature is reached and salinity is set to 1.0025 or 1.0026?
- can I leave the skimmer on during the whole cycle to break in?

I plan to leave the light off the whole time.
Thanks

I would add the Dr Tims now and not add the ammonia until tomorrow. You don't need to run the skimmer but I think it is a good idea.

brandon429 · Apr 25, 2020

you are adding dr tims to already bac-coated rocks though. redundancy/inefficient expenditures, unless you require a very fast fish-in start. that quick start above does show the power of bottle bac but its better to fallow prep/research quarantine fish disease control before stocking fish.

by that design, no fish intially but rather corals and CUC and feeding etc (fish last, after fallow) the 14 day wait for liferocks to fully cycle will be passed. bottle bac only helps if you must add fish, now. liferocks auto cycle by two weeks in saltwater, skimmer or no skimmer doesnt matter.

canadianeh · Apr 25, 2020

I am not in a hurry to add fish. I actually have dr Tim’s and microbacter XLM. They say you can’t have too much of bacteria so I don’t mind to spend $10-$15 extra. Then I will leave it empty just rocks only for a month and occasionally adding ammonia or fish food.

Maybe it is overkill but I want to make sure I have good bacteria colony in the tank. I also have marine pure balls in the sump.

Regarding buying fish, I have LFS (google Carl’s aquarium in Toronto) who quarantine his fish for 3 weeks with some medication and I plan to buy it from him so I don’t need to deal with QT.

Dan_P · Apr 25, 2020

brandon429 said:
Bio-spira works great

I just started a new tank a little over a week ago. I started with all dry rock and new sand. I added a bottle of Bio-Spira and put fish and coral the same day. Never saw any ammonia and fish and coral seem healthy.

www.reef2reef.com

@Dan_P
thats the best bottle bac ability thread Ive seen. day 1 dry start $200 anemone

and thats not even fritz, bio spira is lower end but possibly not in measurable benefit.

fritz $ bottle bac, costliest one, has been tested in Dr. Reefs thread above to adhere to surfaces and be immune to systemic 100% water changes (fast transition suspended to benthic) within a day.

I am impressed with these quick start examples. Do we have followup information to show there is long term success?

brandon429 · Apr 25, 2020

regarding disease prevention/awaiting.

but that amount of bioload absolutely cannot survive overnite in an uncycled tank, he passed the cycle completion date on day 2. the bacteria transition from pelagic/dosed by bottle into benthic/locked in place within a couple days using biospira. cycle fully done, disease control: roulette.

by day 10-14 we think his liferock would activate but the biospira carried all that start to day 14.

*someone needs to oxidize test some liferocks with no other boosters so we know case closed how they're inoculated or not*

Ill vote they certainly inoculated with a pigmented bioshellac that activates in water, not totally shocking for companies that make products that allow for 1st day $200 anemone above, they did it in a liquid suspension culture and the other guys found out a way to paint it...