Bacteria in bottle, busting myth, Seneye style.

[MnFish1]

A lot of heterotrophs are able to perform nitrification and or denitrification in an aerobic environment. Some of them form endospores. In numbers +- 1 000 000 of these heterotrophs will be able to nitrify the same amount ammonium as one autotrophic nitrifier.
Making the difference between ammonium reduction by assimilation and ammonium reduction by nitrification , in an aquarium these nitrifying heterotrophs play a minor role for the total nitrification capacity.
As already discussed important processes take place in communities, microbial mats, biofilms, holoboints, for example a coral holoboint. Such communities depend of the balance between all members within the community. This balance is found due to communication. If it would be possible to supply a few ore even most of the species needed to form the microbial community via a bottle ( which is not possible) it will depend of the availability of those species NOT added via the bottle and the time needed to form working communicating communities to install a nitrifying capacity, the time needed to form a biofilm.

When it comes to ammonium assimilation ( not nitrification) a certain heterotrophic ammonia reduction capacity may be attained via a bottle containing heterotrophic r-strategists and supplemental organic carbon or suitable F/2 media containing the building materials. As r-strategists are the first bacteria to enter a new aquarium I doubt they have to be supplemented via a bottle. Nobody will be able to determine if bacteria added via a bottle are responsible for the increased assimilation capacity. I assume only providing the nutrients and building materials will show the same assimilation increase.
The difference between an installed carrying capacity and a carrying capacity dependable and based on regular dosing and growth.
By promoting ammonium assimilation one is able to add fish to a new set up within a week. The question is how long this will last as no suitable installed nitrification capacity will be present.

I know all of these things. But its good to review them. My point was that its 'assumed' that heterotrophs are present - but if the companies are not saying what bacteria are in their bottles - who knows? Fritz itself has a bottle (Fritzyme 9) that does not need refrigeration (as compared to Turbostart 900) - yet it supposedly it contains nitrifiers the directions are to store in a cool dry place. So - there is no way to be certain that others don't have similar bacteria - or other bacteria strains that are not nitrosomonas, etc - but Archaea of some type - that may do much better than other heterotrophs but grow more quickly than other autotrophs. The point was - we don't know.

 

[MnFish1]

A lot of heterotrophs are able to perform nitrification and or denitrification in an aerobic environment. Some of them form endospores. In numbers +- 1 000 000 of these heterotrophs will be able to nitrify the same amount ammonium as one autotrophic nitrifier.
Making the difference between ammonium reduction by assimilation and ammonium reduction by nitrification , in an aquarium these nitrifying heterotrophs play a minor role for the total nitrification capacity.
As already discussed important processes take place in communities, microbial mats, biofilms, holoboints, for example a coral holoboint. Such communities depend of the balance between all members within the community. This balance is found due to communication. If it would be possible to supply a few ore even most of the species needed to form the microbial community via a bottle ( which is not possible) it will depend of the availability of those species NOT added via the bottle and the time needed to form working communicating communities to install a nitrifying capacity, the time needed to form a biofilm.

When it comes to ammonium assimilation ( not nitrification) a certain heterotrophic ammonia reduction capacity may be attained via a bottle containing heterotrophic r-strategists and supplemental organic carbon or suitable F/2 media containing the building materials. As r-strategists are the first bacteria to enter a new aquarium I doubt they have to be supplemented via a bottle. Nobody will be able to determine if bacteria added via a bottle are responsible for the increased assimilation capacity. I assume only providing the nutrients and building materials will show the same assimilation increase.
The difference between an installed carrying capacity and a carrying capacity dependable and based on regular dosing and growth.
By promoting ammonium assimilation one is able to add fish to a new set up within a week. The question is how long this will last as no suitable installed nitrification capacity will be present.

I remember this discussion from either another thread - or earlier in this one. My question - How do you explain the success of Fritz Turbo in these experiments using only Ammonia as a substrate - if they aren't adding 'nitrifiers'?

 

[BZOFIQ]

So whats the outcome?

 

[MnFish1]

Please understand that while I appreciate your time and effort into doing this however I feel all money and effort you and the companies that participated and invested into this "study" of yours is somewhat wasted up to this point because going through 50+ pages of the original thread I do not see any meaningful results that have any benefit to anyone looking to see what product works and in what amount of time other than you saying the fritz turbostart beats everything else. If anything it looks to be a sponsored build log of a a quarantine system that you are building since there is little data to find if any buried in 1000 comments. I apologize if I come off as abrasive but I feel I am just expressing how many people are feeling about your project. I wish you the best..

I guess I feel strongly that you're incorrect. Of the products tested, Fritz Turbo 900 worked well and lowered ammonia within 1-2 days to 0. Others did somewhat less well. Some of the 'bottles' that didnt do as well once a carbon source was added also lowered ammonia rapidly... It was felt that Dr Tims perhaps didnt work as well because the bottle wasnt mixed properly. There was also a question about the starting level of ammonia used. In all of the studies, the time frame in which the ammonia was lowered - and the starting level of ammonia was shown. We now have a much better idea of appropriate levels of ammonia to start a cycle, which product seems to work best (when following manufacturers instructions) - and how long that takes.

Many people here have spent hour debating and deciding how to best study this in a hobbiest setting. It has been so successful that companies are donating their products to help do the testing. So - at least the companies involved (even those who have not been as successful) felt it was appropriately designed - or they would not have supplied product. One company reviewed the whole protocol and said it was a good design. Other companies are mimicking the study to determine why their product may not have worked 'as well'. I also don't think that many people are feeling that way about this project (as quoted in the second bolded part of your original post).

Maybe you could be a little more specific as to 'what you want'? I also don't want to come across as abrasive - but - this has been a huge amount of work for @Dr. Reef and others - and I think it has given much more information that we had several months ago - especially since many people on this forum felt that 'Bacteria in a bottle WAS a myth'.

 

[MnFish1]

So whats the outcome?

First - there is no outcome from this study (Ie the one using the ammonia monitors - its just starting). If you look at my post above this one - it summarizes the results that I personally got out of the first set of studies on the other thread. Hope this helps

 

[SciGuy2]

I'd like to see how a handful of humus compares to the bottled products. Forgive me, old environmental scientist here.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I remember this discussion from either another thread - or earlier in this one. My question - How do you explain the success of Fritz Turbo in these experiments using only Ammonia as a substrate - if they aren't adding 'nitrifiers'?

One does not need nitrifiers to reduce ammonium. Ammonium is the primary and preferred nitrogen source of most organisms for metabolism. Fast ammonia reduction can be accomplished by adding nutrients and building materials for r-strategists.
Nitrifying facts: in bio-filters Archae and not AOB may be considered to be the main ammonium oxidizer. Archaea produce NO2. NOB may transform the nitrite to nitrate. On the reef and in the ocean a lot of NO2 is used by ANAMMOX to export ammonium-nitrogen. ANAMMOX was first isolated in aquarium filter installations.

When adding 100% live cultures of nitrifiers , installing a nitrifying capacity in a new aquarium will still take a few weeks. During this installation period enough ammonium must be available making it possible to install a balanced nitrification/denitrification capacity. Cycling an aquarium is more as only installing an ammonium reduction capacity. A balanced nitrifying biofilm contains all bacteria to cycle and remineralize bio-mass including sulphur bacteria to remove produced HS. In a normal balanced nitrifying biofilm +- 16% of the produced nitrate is reduced to N2. +- 40 % of the community will be bacteria using an anaerobic pathway.

Fritz Turbo is able to do what live cultures of nitrifiers can not! Why?
Nitrifying capacity delivered in a closed bottle? Really!?

 

[MnFish1]

One does not need nitrifiers to reduce ammonium. Ammonium is the primary and preferred nitrogen source of most organisms for metabolism. Fast ammonia reduction can be accomplished by adding nutrients and building materials for r-strategists.
Nitrifying facts: in bio-filters Archae and not AOB may be considered to be the main ammonium oxidizer. Archaea produce NO2. NOB may transform the nitrite to nitrate. On the reef and in the ocean a lot of NO2 is used by ANAMMOX to export ammonium-nitrogen. ANAMMOX was first isolated in aquarium filter installations.
When adding 100% live cultures of nitrifiers , installing a nitrifying capacity in a new aquarium will still take a few weeks. During this installation period enough ammonium must be available making it possible to install a balanced nitrification/denitrification capacity. Cycling an aquarium is more as only installing an ammonium reduction capacity. A balanced nitrifying biofilm contains all bacteria to cycle and remineralize bio-mass including sulphur bacteria to remove produced HS. In a normal balanced nitrifying biofilm +- 16% of the produced nitrate is reduced to N2. +- 40 % of the community will be bacteria using an anaerobic pathway.
Fritz Turbo is able to do what live cultures of nitrifiers can not! Why?
Nitrifying capacity delivered in a closed bottle? Really!?

Sorry - read what I wrote. I said the same thing - I'm not sure where you're coming from. If what you say is true - that adding nitrifiers will takee 'a few weeks' how do you explain the addition of Fritz 900 to the expirimental tanks - and ammonia drops to 0 within a day? read everything - and then respond - Don't respond based on what you think someone said. You and your biofilm. LOL Google it. Its a fallacy

 

[MnFish1]

I'd like to see how a handful of humus compares to the bottled products. Forgive me, old environmental scientist here.

Probably similarly. If the nitrifiers in the humus could survive in salt water - and the data today suggests they are not interchangeable.

 

[MnFish1]

One does not need nitrifiers to reduce ammonium. Ammonium is the primary and preferred nitrogen source of most organisms for metabolism. Fast ammonia reduction can be accomplished by adding nutrients and building materials for r-strategists.
Nitrifying facts: in bio-filters Archae and not AOB may be considered to be the main ammonium oxidizer. Archaea produce NO2. NOB may transform the nitrite to nitrate. On the reef and in the ocean a lot of NO2 is used by ANAMMOX to export ammonium-nitrogen. ANAMMOX was first isolated in aquarium filter installations.

When adding 100% live cultures of nitrifiers , installing a nitrifying capacity in a new aquarium will still take a few weeks. During this installation period enough ammonium must be available making it possible to install a balanced nitrification/denitrification capacity. Cycling an aquarium is more as only installing an ammonium reduction capacity. A balanced nitrifying biofilm contains all bacteria to cycle and remineralize bio-mass including sulphur bacteria to remove produced HS. In a normal balanced nitrifying biofilm +- 16% of the produced nitrate is reduced to N2. +- 40 % of the community will be bacteria using an anaerobic pathway.

Fritz Turbo is able to do what live cultures of nitrifiers can not! Why?
Nitrifying capacity delivered in a closed bottle? Really!?

Ps - you still didn't answer the question I asked you to reply to

 

[Brew12]

I'd like to see how a handful of humus compares to the bottled products. Forgive me, old environmental scientist here.

I greatly enjoy hummus with some bottled products. Tasty and good for you. Kinda. Sorry, old sailor here....

Oh.. you said humus!!!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Sorry - read what I wrote. I said the same thing - I'm not sure where you're coming from. If what you say is true - that adding nitrifiers will takee 'a few weeks' how do you explain the addition of Fritz 900 to the expirimental tanks - and ammonia drops to 0 within a day? read everything - and then respond - Don't respond based on what you think someone said. You and your biofilm. LOL Google it. Its a fallacy

I had to search Google for the meaning of the word "fallacy"
My biofilm?
Read the added references!
Most articles in Makazi Baharini, my knowledge base, are in Dutch but the references used are in English and can be consulted. Articles are based on approved research publications or on articles containing references of approved papers . Commercial publications or commercial based research is used only when accompanied by an approved and published research report. For commercial products this includes the content of the commercial product is known.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

How difficult may it be to let drop ammonia to zero in a day?

A new with RO/DI water cleaned plastic 10litre bucket filled with RO/DI water. Temp 20°C Add 15 drops of a 5% ammonium chloride ( NH4Cl) solution , enough for +- 0.5ppm NH4-N. Add nothing else. Ammonia NH3-N will not be measured or be less as 0.002ppm . TAN may be +- 0.5ppm. Put in an air stone for aeration and water movement. After 24 h most TAN will be used. How long will it take for all NH4-N to be used if some drops of f/2 media are added ? No bacteria added!? NO2 will not rise the first day although most ammonium is used up!

No nitrifiers get involved as long the polymers in the plastic release organic carbon and building materials are available . Only after the initial heterotrophic growth starts to die off and is remineralized nitrifiers will start building up a comunity.

 

[User]

.

 

[SciGuy2]

Probably similarly. If the nitrifiers in the humus could survive in salt water - and the data today suggests they are not interchangeable.

Ah, but the dust of the world resides in the humble humus and it can be such a lovely inoculum.

 

[MnFish1]

How difficult may it be to let drop ammonia to zero in a day?

A new with RO/DI water cleaned plastic 10litre bucket filled with RO/DI water. Temp 20°C Add 15 drops of a 5% ammonium chloride ( NH4Cl) solution , enough for +- 0.5ppm NH4-N. Add nothing else. Ammonia NH3-N will not be measured or be less as 0.002ppm . TAN may be +- 0.5ppm. Put in an air stone for aeration and water movement. After 24 h most TAN will be used. How long will it take for all NH4-N to be used if some drops of f/2 media are added ? No bacteria added!? NO2 will not rise the first day although most ammonium is used up!

No nitrifiers get involved as long the polymers in the plastic release organic carbon and building materials are available . Only after the initial heterotrophic growth starts to die off and is remineralized nitrifiers will start building up a comunity.

Perhaps - But if you look at the results from the study - the tanks with ammonia added did not drop at all after 7 days. The tank with the Fritz Turbo went from 4 ppm to 0 in 24 hours (I believe)

 

[lakai]

Perhaps - But if you look at the results from the study - the tanks with ammonia added did not drop at all after 7 days. The tank with the Fritz Turbo went from 4 ppm to 0 in 24 hours (I believe)

BioSpira will do the same. Drop ammonia to zero in hours. I've been able to replicate this 5-6 times. The first few times I had found that nitrite would not come down for a few days. The last 3 times cycling from fresh new tanks I think I solved the nitrite issue and have been able to get nitrite down to zero by day 4 and have replicated this once so far.

Heres the data on the most recent cycle with bio-spira. I just copied the data from the Seneye web and added some notes to a spreadsheet.

This tank has 3 tangs and a clown goby happily residing in it temporarily feeding 2 cubes of frozen and 3 pellet feedings per day and never had a ammonia spike. Only 1 water change since.

 

[MnFish1]

BioSpira will do the same. Drop ammonia to zero in hours. I've been able to replicate this 5-6 times. The first few times I had found that nitrite would not come down for a few days. The last 3 times cycling from fresh new tanks I think I solved the nitrite issue and have been able to get nitrite down to zero by day 4 and have replicated this once so far.

Heres the data on the most recent cycle with bio-spira. I just copied the data from the Seneye web and added some notes to a spreadsheet.

This tank has 3 tangs and a clown goby happily residing in it temporarily feeding 2 cubes of frozen and 3 pellet feedings per day and never had a ammonia spike. Only 1 water change since.

second column the units say mg/l ppm, the highest level I see is 0.034 ppm. Or am I reading this incorrectly?

 

[lakai]

second column the units say mg/l ppm, the highest level I see is 0.034 ppm. Or am I reading this incorrectly?

http://answers.seneye.com/en/water_chemistry/what_is_ammonia_NH3_NH4/what_ammonia_level_is_safe I don't really understand the decimal places either maybe @ADQ_Seneye could clear it up. The highest reading i've had was 0.074 and that had my fish near dead and lifeless.

 

[MnFish1]

http://answers.seneye.com/en/water_chemistry/what_is_ammonia_NH3_NH4/what_ammonia_level_is_safe I don't really understand the decimal places either maybe @ADQ_Seneye could clear it up. The highest reading i've had was 0.074 and that had my fish near dead and lifeless.

I think it means your ammonia at the highest was .074ppm. And in your chart the highest was 0.034 ppm. Not 3. Did you dose the dr Tim’s to a certain level?