Bacteria in bottle, busting myth, Seneye style.

[lakai]

@Dr. Reef has been thoroughly testing, and posting results that could benefit all of us.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure I would agree on that and I'll explain why. In his tests he pits one product vs another which is fine but the Fritz turbostart will almost always win no matter what other product it comes up against. The reason from what I gather is due to the temperature maintained during shipping (refrigerated) allows for much of the bacteria that breaks down nitrite into nitrate or ammonia to nitrite (Forgot which one) is kept alive and does not need the time required to reproduce into a colony large enough to become effective. I imagine that is why they call it "Turbo Start". They will all work the same within a few days or a week once that certain bacteria has populated enough. Although I'm new to the hobby, my limited anecdotal experience aligns with a bit of reading of the papers about nitrifying bacteria.

What would prove beneficial is to know what conditions are optimal and which impede the cycle itself. jmo.

 

[Dr. Reef]

First off I dont think you read my study. There is no 1 product vs other in this study.
I test 4 products against 1 control.
Fritz was in group 1 and it's not being tested now.
Group 2 has no fritz product. Which is what I am on right now.
I have no affiliation with any product company nor i work for one. Its not my call for one company to sell their product cold or frozen or room temp.
If Fritz decided to sell theirs at cooler temps and Dr Tim doesnt or ATM Colony doesnt then that upto them. I can only test what manufacturers recommend and how much to use. I dont alter directions/instructions.
If Fritz going to out perform other because its sold cold then maybe other manufacturers need to learn something from Fritz and stop selling water in bottle that dont work like they claim to be.
My study is simply using 8 different brands on the market in similar tanks for 7 days with same amount of ammonia to start with and with daily testing show which product performs well.
I am working with companies in the background that didnt perform well to design and narrow down the reasons for it not to work.
Regarding Seneye monitors, you have no clue why these units were given to me or lend to me or i have to return them after use or i had to put a deposit for them etc. You have no clue what i am going to do with them after i get done testing the products and what arrangements i have with reef2reef management for these units so please dont put out statements that belittle you.
My study is to benefit people looking for answers which product works and in what amount of time. I am not here to put one company over another.
This Seneye study will start soon as i am currently trying to wrap up initial thread that i started.
By the way all this study and testing that has cost me personally about $150 each time i reset and retest and i have done so about 8 times and many more to go. Yes all bacteria bottles were given to me free except for last few orders i placed to get Ftriz and Prodibio but all the equipment and testkits, hardware and time effort and electric is all on me. No one anywhere on the web or any lab has done so extensive study on bacteria like what we are doing here to which a company like Seachem has setup similar testing in their labs due to my results triggering them to look into.
I appreciate fellow hobbyist that have been helpful and patient while we tackle all the kinks and painfully wait for results that come slow.

 

[lakai]

First off I dont think you read my study.

I read as much as I could 50+ pages unfortunately.

Regarding Seneye monitors, you have no clue why these units were given to me or lend to me or i have to return them after use or i had to put a deposit for them etc. You have no clue what i am going to do with them after i get done testing the products and what arrangements i have with reef2reef management for these units so please dont put out statements that belittle you.

You're right, I don't have a clue why seneye would give you the monitors. It never occurred to me to question it nor was there any interest for me to do so as I am not trying to attack you or your intentions in any way. My comment was clearly a joke given the time that your "study" has gone on. However I did see a comment in that thread by someone who mentioned that they saw you say in another thread that bought 30 fish from liveaquaria recently.

On the subject of using the seneyes, it would be nice to understand how you will implement them since each one needs a dedicated computer or dedicated SWS to monitor each unit in real time which it seems that you do not have or mentioned. It would be great for the "study" if you could use the seneye api to log all the data and present it in a way that will beneficial for everyone. There is no need to just say ammonia went to xxppm after xx hours when the seneye will show all the data needed to answer any questions anyone might have.

My study is to benefit people looking for answers which product works and in what amount of time.

If anything, your "Study" should be extremely beneficial to someone like me, new to the hobby and having to cycle a tank as well as having to start an emergency hospital tank is it not? Please understand that while I appreciate your time and effort into doing this however I feel all money and effort you and the companies that participated and invested into this "study" of yours is somewhat wasted up to this point because going through 50+ pages of the original thread I do not see any meaningful results that have any benefit to anyone looking to see what product works and in what amount of time other than you saying the fritz turbostart beats everything else. If anything it looks to be a sponsored build log of a a quarantine system that you are building since there is little data to find if any buried in 1000 comments. I apologize if I come off as abrasive but I feel I am just expressing how many people are feeling about your project. I wish you the best..

 

[Dr. Reef]

there needs to be more clarifications.
1. I didnt buy 30 fish from LA recently. My comment was regarding purchase in recent past. I have bought maybe over 30 fish in last year or so from LA and was disappointed with quality. What does that got to do with this study?
2. Not all 5 Seneye monitors are going to need an individual computer. Seneye will setup all 5 under same web log account. I have a pc that will be running all 5 Seneye monitors via 5 usb ports and logging real time data on to their web server under 1 account.
3. Its been mentioned many many times in that thread that this is just a thread and comments and concerns and experiments/studies are being conducted and posted. Once i am done with all studies, I will write an official article taking posts from this thread. It will be a more cleaned up article with no detrailed and unrelated comments posts and concerns etc.

 

[Dr. Reef]

This is the quote from the thread in question which i still dont know what it has to do with this.

https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/liveaquaria-changes-14-day-policy.430812/page-4#post-5263489

"This year starting from january till today I have purchased probably about 30 some fish from live aquaria. About 75% died in quarantine.
Most of them were purely under observation and not even medication"

 

[Sierra_Bravo]

@Dr. Reef Personally, I don't think you have to continue to defend yourself on any of the points made by the commenter. Keep up the good work.

"What we've got here is failure to communicate. Some men, you just can't reach." - Captain, Road Prison 36

 

[Dr. Reef]

@Sierra_Bravo agree 100%. moving on.
I have few rounds of the original testing to do then on to this Seneye study.
Thank you everyone for your support.

 

[DirtDiggler2823]

@Sierra_Bravo agree 100%. moving on.
I have few rounds of the original testing to do then on to this Seneye study.
Thank you everyone for your support.

I have a tank that I will begin cycling soon, and a quarantine tank I'll need to have a bacteria solution for as well. I'm very curious to see what comes out of all the testing.

 

[AQD-Seneye]

Hi Everyone,
Just an Fyi that the Thanksgiving sale for Seneye is now on (dealers may not have codes up until Monday so Please email them.

15% off ALL Seneye main units until 1st December

Happy shopping @
Premium Aquatics
Saltwater Aquarium
Marine Depot
Aqua Cave
Aquarium Specialty.

 

[cromag27]

there needs to be more clarifications.
1. I didnt buy 30 fish from LA recently. My comment was regarding purchase in recent past. I have bought maybe over 30 fish in last year or so from LA and was disappointed with quality. What does that got to do with this study?
2. Not all 5 Seneye monitors are going to need an individual computer. Seneye will setup all 5 under same web log account. I have a pc that will be running all 5 Seneye monitors via 5 usb ports and logging real time data on to their web server under 1 account.
3. Its been mentioned many many times in that thread that this is just a thread and comments and concerns and experiments/studies are being conducted and posted. Once i am done with all studies, I will write an official article taking posts from this thread. It will be a more cleaned up article with no detrailed and unrelated comments posts and concerns etc.

boom.

 

[mikeyn]

@Dr. Reef has been thoroughly testing, and posting results that could benefit all of us.

I'm not sure I would agree on that and I'll explain why. In his tests he pits one product vs another which is fine but the Fritz turbostart will almost always win no matter what other product it comes up against. The reason from what I gather is due to the temperature maintained during shipping (refrigerated) allows for much of the bacteria that breaks down nitrite into nitrate or ammonia to nitrite (Forgot which one) is kept alive and does not need the time required to reproduce into a colony large enough to become effective. I imagine that is why they call it "Turbo Start". They will all work the same within a few days or a week once that certain bacteria has populated enough. Although I'm new to the hobby, my limited anecdotal experience aligns with a bit of reading of the papers about nitrifying bacteria.

What would prove beneficial is to know what conditions are optimal and which impede the cycle itself. jmo.[/QUOTE]

Temperature/shelf life has nothing to do with the majority of these products as they do not contain true nitrifiers, so them cycling a new system in a few days or a week is not very likely.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Few observations I have to add on this above statements.

1. Not all products have true nitrifier bacteria.
2. All manufacturers know that Fritz has refrigerated lineup so if they still decide to compete with Fritz with a heterotrophs bacteria which is shelf stable then its upto them.
3. I have recently did a study on Turbostart cold vs room temp left out at 78 to 80F for 2 weeks and it still out performed all other products and I am going to test it at 1 month out at room temp and people at Fritz are very confident that it will work even longer than a month on lower ammonia levels and may struggle at high levels but point is it will still work.

I test products the way it says on the instructions printed on the bottle/box. I dont alter any instructions or dosage to give advantage or disadvantage one over the other.

Yes Fritz has advantage of being cold but that's any manufacturers right to produce it that way.

Seeing a room temp Turbostart out perform other competitors tells me that temp and shelf life has very little to play in cycling unless it's a very old out of date bottle or have been subjected to extreme freeze or extreme heat which will kill and bacteria to begin with.

In my opinion most relevant and better working products will have a short shelf life and probably rotated well and kept refrigerated.

 

[RamsReef]

This is great.

 

[MnFish1]

I read as much as I could 50+ pages unfortunately.



You're right, I don't have a clue why seneye would give you the monitors. It never occurred to me to question it nor was there any interest for me to do so as I am not trying to attack you or your intentions in any way. My comment was clearly a joke given the time that your "study" has gone on. However I did see a comment in that thread by someone who mentioned that they saw you say in another thread that bought 30 fish from liveaquaria recently.

On the subject of using the seneyes, it would be nice to understand how you will implement them since each one needs a dedicated computer or dedicated SWS to monitor each unit in real time which it seems that you do not have or mentioned. It would be great for the "study" if you could use the seneye api to log all the data and present it in a way that will beneficial for everyone. There is no need to just say ammonia went to xxppm after xx hours when the seneye will show all the data needed to answer any questions anyone might have.




If anything, your "Study" should be extremely beneficial to someone like me, new to the hobby and having to cycle a tank as well as having to start an emergency hospital tank is it not? Please understand that while I appreciate your time and effort into doing this however I feel all money and effort you and the companies that participated and invested into this "study" of yours is somewhat wasted up to this point because going through 50+ pages of the original thread I do not see any meaningful results that have any benefit to anyone looking to see what product works and in what amount of time other than you saying the fritz turbostart beats everything else. If anything it looks to be a sponsored build log of a a quarantine system that you are building since there is little data to find if any buried in 1000 comments. I apologize if I come off as abrasive but I feel I am just expressing how many people are feeling about your project. I wish you the best..

Ummm - start at the first couple pages - you'll see the goal was not to compare products. The goal was to see 'if it worked'. It seems (based on the study) that Fritz turbo 900 works. Some others do as well - esp when adding a carbon source. So - if the original thesis (read the title of the thread) - was that bacteria in a bottle is a myth - the answer is no its not.

The reason Fritz 900 'works' - and the reason it needs to be refrigerated is that it contains huge numbers more bacteria than its other counterpart which does not need to be refrigerated. IMHO

 

[MnFish1]

I'm not sure I would agree on that and I'll explain why. In his tests he pits one product vs another which is fine but the Fritz turbostart will almost always win no matter what other product it comes up against. The reason from what I gather is due to the temperature maintained during shipping (refrigerated) allows for much of the bacteria that breaks down nitrite into nitrate or ammonia to nitrite (Forgot which one) is kept alive and does not need the time required to reproduce into a colony large enough to become effective. I imagine that is why they call it "Turbo Start". They will all work the same within a few days or a week once that certain bacteria has populated enough. Although I'm new to the hobby, my limited anecdotal experience aligns with a bit of reading of the papers about nitrifying bacteria.

What would prove beneficial is to know what conditions are optimal and which impede the cycle itself. jmo.

Mikeyn says: Temperature/shelf life has nothing to do with the majority of these products as they do not contain true nitrifiers, so them cycling a new system in a few days or a week is not very likely.

I know you work for Fritz - but - I think its not a good idea for you to come on the forum and say that 'the majority don't contain nitrifiers'. BTW - you may very well be correct - that said - I think its a bit unfair to say that without disclosing your interest in Fritz - and which of the majority (in your opinion - or fact based (either one)) don't contain nitrifiers. Note this is not a slam - I have looked and called many of the manufacturers - most won't exactly say which bacteria is 'in their bottle'.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

Bacteria in bottle? http://www.cryerfamily.eclipse.co.uk/BacteriaBottleParable.htm

 

[SciGuy2]

Everyone wait on posting until I make some popcorn. Pls/Thx

 

[MnFish1]

Bacteria in bottle? http://www.cryerfamily.eclipse.co.uk/BacteriaBottleParable.htm

This is a great example of bacterial exponential growth. But - It doesn't apply to 'all bacteria' - i.e. spore formers - or those that can go dormant under periods of low nutrient content. Nitrifies multiply much slower than the bacteria in your example - but it is a good point. And many people would say that the common nitrifiers cant live 'in a bottle'

 

[Belgian Anthias]

This is a great example of bacterial exponential growth. But - It doesn't apply to 'all bacteria' - i.e. spore formers - or those that can go dormant under periods of low nutrient content. Nitrifies multiply much slower than the bacteria in your example - but it is a good point. And many people would say that the common nitrifiers cant live 'in a bottle'

Autotrophic nitrifiers do not form endospores and need a lot of oxygen. One may slow down there life cycle but most will die. If the sample is contaminated with other bacteria the available biomass will be used. All these bacteria are present in an aquarium certainly when a small piece of natural rock is added to the system.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

A lot of heterotrophs are able to perform nitrification and or denitrification in an aerobic environment. Some of them form endospores. In numbers +- 1 000 000 of these heterotrophs will be able to nitrify the same amount ammonium as one autotrophic nitrifier. Making the difference between ammonium reduction by assimilation and ammonium reduction by nitrification , in an aquarium these nitrifying heterotrophs play a minor role for the total nitrification capacity.
As already discussed important processes take place in communities, microbial mats, biofilms, holoboints, for example a coral holoboint. Such communities depend of the balance between all members within the community. This balance is found due to communication. If it would be possible to supply a few ore even most of the species needed to form the microbial community via a bottle ( which is not possible) it will depend of the availability of those species NOT added via the bottle and the time needed to form working communicating communities to install a nitrifying capacity, the time needed to form a biofilm.

When it comes to ammonium assimilation ( not nitrification) a certain heterotrophic ammonia reduction capacity may be attained via a bottle containing heterotrophic r-strategists and supplemental organic carbon or suitable F/2 media containing the building materials. As r-strategists are the first bacteria to enter a new aquarium I doubt they have to be supplemented via a bottle. Nobody will be able to determine if bacteria added via a bottle are responsible for the increased assimilation capacity. I assume only providing the nutrients and building materials will show the same assimilation increase.
The difference between an installed carrying capacity and a carrying capacity dependable and based on regular dosing and growth.
By promoting ammonium assimilation one is able to add fish to a new set up within a week. The question is how long this will last as no suitable installed nitrification capacity will be present.