Bacteria in bottle, busting myth, Seneye style.

[Dr. Reef]

Why adding expensive products of which one does not know what they contain when nature will remove as much ammonia as needed for free!?

I have had issues like ich breakout. No qt setup. What do you do?
You setup a sterile qt and cycle in 2 days with Fritz Turbostart 900 and transfer fish.

Maybe someone doesnt want empty brand new tank to look empty after spending thousands on new setup and want to add fish right away.

Just a few reasons for someone to use such products.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I have had issues like ich breakout. No qt setup. What do you do?
You setup a sterile qt and cycle in 2 days with Fritz Turbostart 900 and transfer fish.

Maybe someone doesnt want empty brand new tank to look empty after spending thousands on new setup and want to add fish right away.

Just a few reasons for someone to use such products.

And kill the fish and blame it on the Ich break out.!
Fritz 900 turbostart claims it contains live nitrifying baceria in a high concentration. Heterotrophs or autotrophs? How they are kept alive? In high concentrations!? Nitrifying autotrops, bacteria and archaea, kept alive in a closed bottle? Nitrification is respiration, they need a lot of oxygen when they are active. In lag phase some will survive a period of time. Maybe it contains Acinetobacter sp or other species able to perform the SHNAD proces?

The problem is, the carying capacity should be installed when adding the fish. What I would do in such an emergency is bring the fish in quarentaine seperatly and change a lot of water instead of expect wonders .
Since we have access to conditioned BADES-rolls we just have to add such a role in the Quarentaine tank to prevent any ammonia build up.

Rather stupid to spend thousands on a new setup and then add a product of wich one does not know what it contains . Never add products to a live support system of wich is not known what they contain exactly. In aquaculture, this would be very bad management.
What you claim is that Fritz turbo will install sufficient carying capacity in two days! With nitrifiers!? Can someone explain the theorie of how this may be done? How this is possible even if the product contains all bacteria needed live and kicking .
Maybe someone can give a hint of wich bacteria we are talking, able to do what is claimed in two days.
I spent a lot of time , many years, studying the nitrogen cycle in closed systems, especially zero emission RAS, ZMAS, and reef aquaria, the different ways to maintain a propper reliable carrying capacity and to close the nitrogen cycle in a closed marine system on a safe and relaible way.

If such a wonder product exist it would be worth a lot of money! If application of the product would be cheaper as just changing water for a period of time.

The aplicationof a BADES roll during one moth of quarentine would cost less than 1$ ( not including the self made BADES roll of +- 10$ as it can be reused )

 

[Dr. Reef]

@Belgian Anthias
there are many ways to skin a cat. there are 40k followers in my other thread that want to know which product they can use for under whatever circumstances they maybe in and so far i had not seen anyone testing these bacteria in bottles to see if they work or they dont.
I think i have provided a lot of good info and produced pretty good results and i am sure it will help many that want to use these products. if you dont thats your opinion and we respect it so this thread may not be of an interest to you.
Mind you i started these studies in denial to their claims of instant cycle and i did not believe such bacteria can survive manufacturing process, transporting and stock shelving rotation and temp variations but i got proven wrong.

 

[Why-Me]

And kill the fish and blame it on the Ich break out.!
Fritz 900 turbostart claims it contains live nitrifying baceria in a high concentration. Heterotrophs or autotrophs? How they are kept alive? In high concentrations!? Nitrifying autotrops, bacteria and archaea, kept alive in a closed bottle? Nitrification is respiration, they need a lot of oxygen when they are active. In lag phase some will survive a period of time. Maybe it contains Acinetobacter sp or other species able to perform the SHNAD proces?
The problem is, the carying capacity should be installed when adding the fish. What I would do in such an emergency is bring the fish in quarentaine seperatly and change a lot of water instead of expect wonders .
Since we have access to conditioned BADES-rolls we just have to add such a role in the Quarentaine tank to prevent any ammonia build up.

Rather stupid to spend thousands on a new setup and then add a product of wich one does not know what it contains . Never add products to a live support system of wich is not known what they contain exactly. In aquaculture, this would be very bad management.
What you claim is that Fritz turbo will install sufficient carying capacity in two days! With nitrifiers!? Can someone explain the theorie of how this may be done? How this is possible even if the product contains all bacteria needed live and kicking .
Maybe someone can give a hint of wich bacteria we are talking, able to do what is claimed in two days.
I spent a lot of time , many years, studying the nitrogen cycle in closed systems, especially zero emission RAS, ZMAS, and reef aquaria, the different ways to maintain a propper reliable carrying capacity and to close the nitrogen cycle in a closed marine system on a safe and relaible way.

If such a wonder product exist it would be worth a lot of money! If application of the product would be cheaper as just changing water for a period of time.

The aplicationof a BADES roll during one moth of quarentine would cost less than 1$ ( not including the self made BADES roll of +- 10$ as it can be reused )

Never give advice in this thread again!!

You should try reading this https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/
I think it's rather stupid to jump into the middle of a thread and hijack it, especially when there's real objective testing being done.
Please by all means don't buy any bacteria for YOUR tank but also please stop telling people here it doesn't work, it's too expensive, that we don't know what it is.
In the bottle is live nitrifying and heterotrophic bacterias, you should try reading before commenting on things you seemingly nothing about.
You sure have a lot of question marks and maybes for being so sure of yourself. Please just stop misinforming those who actually care about the outcome of these tests. Since you believe it doesn't work and it's too expensive, just buzz off since you've made up your mind about the stuff already. Also use google translate or spell check, it's hard to even try to understand what you don't know what you're talking about.
BTW I googled BADES roll and SHNAD process it comes up with nothing about reefing or aquaculture. What's a BADES roll? SHNAD process?
PS. Your links don't work either.
PPS. Do you have actual FACTS to back up anything you said in the above quoted post?

 

[dragon99]

So after a trip down the rabbit hole, I've figured out that BADES is: Biological Autotrophic Denitrification on Elemental Sulphur, no one uses the acronym BADES though...

 

[Why-Me]

LOL
Thank you

 

[Belgian Anthias]

ased

Never give advice in this thread again!!

You should try reading this https://www.reef2reef.com/threads/bacteria-in-a-bottle-myth-or-fact.403226/
I think it's rather stupid to jump into the middle of a thread and hijack it, especially when there's real objective testing being done.
Please by all means don't buy any bacteria for YOUR tank but also please stop telling people here it doesn't work, it's too expensive, that we don't know what it is.
In the bottle is live nitrifying and heterotrophic bacterias, you should try reading before commenting on things you seemingly nothing about.
You sure have a lot of question marks and maybes for being so sure of yourself. Please just stop misinforming those who actually care about the outcome of these tests. Since you believe it doesn't work and it's too expensive, just buzz off since you've made up your mind about the stuff already. Also use google translate or spell check, it's hard to even try to understand what you don't know what you're talking about.
BTW I googled BADES roll and SHNAD process it comes up with nothing about reefing or aquaculture. What's a BADES roll? SHNAD process?
PS. Your links don't work either.
PPS. Do you have actual FACTS to back up anything you said in the above quoted post?

Your first and last sentence are a bit contradictory!

http://www.cryerfamily.eclipse.co.uk/BacteriaBottleParable.htm

Misinforming! Desinformation?
To avoid this, propper references should be used. That is what I do!
Proving the claim.
That is what it is all about!

You claim the bottle contains live nitrifying bacteria and heterotrophs. Any neutral lap report!? Such a report would end the discussion of what is in the bottle. Based on this information one may devolope a theory wich may be build on available proven information. As far as I know this information is not available.

Normally we try to prove a theory but in this case we have no good acceptable theory to prove
A sientific based theorie wich may back up the possibility to condition a tank in a few days with nitrifiers, to back up the claim, would be a good start.
I have notice of most known processes concerning the nitrogen cycle wich may take place in nature and in a closed marine system . All of them we have explained and well documented in the Makazi Baharini wiki . As far as I know not one can be used to back up the claim. There is no theory to prove!

It is possible to maintain fish and shrimp without any nitrification capacity. It is not that difficult to keep a live stock healty without conditioning the tank with nitrifiers.
Everybody is able to maintain fish in a new set up aquarium within a few days. This is nothing special! It is common practice in aquaculture systems. Just must maintain a high C:N ratio in relation to the protein added. No need for expensive wonder products of wich the content is not known and may contain anything.
Shrimp are cultivated and raised in commercial ZMAS without any nitrification capacity by maintaining a high C:N ratio ( 10) by adding organic carbon compounds. Biofloc systems are managed without any nitrification capacity. But there is a big difference between aquaculture in a closed system and keeping a closed marine aquarium. In an aquculture system the total bioload is harvested after a relative short period of time and one starts again from zero.

You just have to use the links provided to know what is BADES and SHNAD ( Biological Autotropic Denitrification on Elemental Sulphur and Simultanious Heterotrophic Nitrification And Denitrification) and how it works. It are processes part of the nitrogen cycle performed by bacteria wich may be used for to remove nitrogen from seewater. ( reefaquaria) SHNAD includes denitrification performed in aerobic conditions, a process wich may take place in a marine aquarium.
For to use the links : When you are confronted with an access denied page then you are not registered.

An I will not bother you any more by adding more correct information certain people do not like. This thread is misleading !

What is in the bottle?

 

[Dr. Reef]

I really dont care what's in the bottle, that's not the objective of this study.
As long as it can reduce ammonia to 0 in given time as they claim I am happy with that.
Only thing I am trying to prove here is if the bottle works or not, like they advertise.
I am going to ignore you past this point as you are derailing the thread.
That testing lead to two type of bacteria in bottles. 1 that works in sterile tank and 2nd that works only when organics are present.
Either way they work.

 

[lakai]

Whats the point in doing the same test ? You don't care what is in the bottle no one really does. Seneye will timestamp and plot the data in easy to read numbers and charts. then you can follow up on how long before nitrite goes to zero. To "prove" if a product works as advertised is just redundant.

They all will work eventually so why not use the seneye to show how quickly the product can take nh3 to get to zero instead of just utilizing it as a way to not have to hand titrate tests?

Please don't take my abrasiveness to offense or personally. I'm not eloquent with words but I'm just trying to be constructive so we can get better discussion on the subject.

 

[Dr. Reef]

Whats the point in doing the same test ? You don't care what is in the bottle no one really does. Seneye will timestamp and plot the data in easy to read numbers and charts. then you can follow up on how long before nitrite goes to zero. To "prove" if a product works as advertised is just redundant.

They all will work eventually so why not use the seneye to show how quickly the product can take nh3 to get to zero instead of just utilizing it as a way to not have to hand titrate tests?

Please don't take my abrasiveness to offense or personally. I'm not eloquent with words but I'm just trying to be constructive so we can get better discussion on the subject.

Not all products will work. Not all products worked in my last study in sterile tank except for Fritz, Bio Spira and Dr Tim. rest all stalled and stayed stalled until food was introduced. This makes me assume by a calculated guess that once stalled and worked after putting carbon source are hetertorph in nature.
Difference in kit testing and Seneye is account of ammonia every 5 min. where its at and how much its dropping which many kits couldnt test and show.
Also after i get testing with sterile tanks i am going to retest with carbon source and basing on that data i am going to redo this test with 2 chormis in each tank.
This is much more in detail and in depth study than a simple color chart kit which has very limited window. After first few tests i will be comfortable to use the test on a few fish without actually harming them.
Most all these bottle bacteria will reduce nitrite to 0 as well within a day or 2 and honestly i will only test nitrites just to show the cycle stage but i normally dont wait for nitrites to hit 0 in my tanks and add fish right after ammonia starts to stay 0. Nitrites as we all know are not harmful in saltwater fish. It will take levels of 500 ppm to kill 25% of damsel population.

 

[cracker]

Geez Doc, I didn't realize all the static You have gotten since starting this test. I personally laud You for the time & work . After all You have been at this for many months .

 

[Dr. Reef]

@cracker I just finished the other thread with all the testing and side studies that came out of it. Now its time to run it again with better testing equipment. Test and study is generally the same but results are much better and obtained more accurately.

 

[cracker]

I see now ! Thanks

 

[Belgian Anthias]

What is in the bottle?
http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html

 

[MnFish1]

If , as an example, a sample contains only dead bacteria the sterile tank will not be sterile any more as it will fast be colonised by bacteria reminerelizing the dead biomass .
r-strategists need other building materials wich they may find in the decaying biomass added . How one may proof the ammonia reduction is induced by adding the sample? R-strategists are any where. When your sterile tank is a plastic container it will stay sterile for a few moments. For this you need a sterile room and even then.

You want to know what the different products contain? Send them unopened ( remove the labels and ad your personal code as otherwise they may refuse the sample) to a food healt lab ( governemental?) for a compleet screening of the bacterial content and decomposition of the other content. In the lab they may make cultures in a sterile envirement. I think it will cost not more as what was payed for the products.

Except this has been disproven - tanks left for 7 days with only ammonia - have no reduction - and certainly they would since there are bacteria all over the place.

 

[MnFish1]

Did you compare with a placebo,? It may be the heterotrops present in the envirement wich start to grow when adding organic carbon.
How one may know the bacteria in the product speeds up the proces as adding some carbon may also accellerate bacterial growth or it just may contain a modified F2media feeding all bacteria already present as your sample will not really be sterile .
For nitrification it can be measured but the Seneye only measures NH3 consumption.
One should be able to measure daily the nitrite and nitrate evolution over a period of at least two weeks. The normal sequence of autotrophic ammonium reduction is well documented and it should be easy to compare.

Succes!

Yes - have not not read lol. the ones with bacteria 'in a bottle' all performed better than the control with nothing added (some required carbon in addition to ammonia)

 

[MnFish1]

And kill the fish and blame it on the Ich break out.!
Fritz 900 turbostart claims it contains live nitrifying baceria in a high concentration. Heterotrophs or autotrophs? How they are kept alive? In high concentrations!? Nitrifying autotrops, bacteria and archaea, kept alive in a closed bottle? Nitrification is respiration, they need a lot of oxygen when they are active. In lag phase some will survive a period of time. Maybe it contains Acinetobacter sp or other species able to perform the SHNAD proces?

The problem is, the carying capacity should be installed when adding the fish. What I would do in such an emergency is bring the fish in quarentaine seperatly and change a lot of water instead of expect wonders .
Since we have access to conditioned BADES-rolls we just have to add such a role in the Quarentaine tank to prevent any ammonia build up.

Rather stupid to spend thousands on a new setup and then add a product of wich one does not know what it contains . Never add products to a live support system of wich is not known what they contain exactly. In aquaculture, this would be very bad management.
What you claim is that Fritz turbo will install sufficient carying capacity in two days! With nitrifiers!? Can someone explain the theorie of how this may be done? How this is possible even if the product contains all bacteria needed live and kicking .
Maybe someone can give a hint of wich bacteria we are talking, able to do what is claimed in two days.
I spent a lot of time , many years, studying the nitrogen cycle in closed systems, especially zero emission RAS, ZMAS, and reef aquaria, the different ways to maintain a propper reliable carrying capacity and to close the nitrogen cycle in a closed marine system on a safe and relaible way.

If such a wonder product exist it would be worth a lot of money! If application of the product would be cheaper as just changing water for a period of time.

The aplicationof a BADES roll during one moth of quarentine would cost less than 1$ ( not including the self made BADES roll of +- 10$ as it can be reused )

OK so you need to re-read the other thread. LOL its well described - you dont need to come back and re-invent the same wheel you were inventing 6 months ago. No offense. You need to open your mind.

 

[MnFish1]

And kill the fish and blame it on the Ich break out.!
Fritz 900 turbostart claims it contains live nitrifying baceria in a high concentration. Heterotrophs or autotrophs? How they are kept alive? In high concentrations!? Nitrifying autotrops, bacteria and archaea, kept alive in a closed bottle? Nitrification is respiration, they need a lot of oxygen when they are active. In lag phase some will survive a period of time. Maybe it contains Acinetobacter sp or other species able to perform the SHNAD proces?

The problem is, the carying capacity should be installed when adding the fish. What I would do in such an emergency is bring the fish in quarentaine seperatly and change a lot of water instead of expect wonders .
Since we have access to conditioned BADES-rolls we just have to add such a role in the Quarentaine tank to prevent any ammonia build up.

Rather stupid to spend thousands on a new setup and then add a product of wich one does not know what it contains . Never add products to a live support system of wich is not known what they contain exactly. In aquaculture, this would be very bad management.
What you claim is that Fritz turbo will install sufficient carying capacity in two days! With nitrifiers!? Can someone explain the theorie of how this may be done? How this is possible even if the product contains all bacteria needed live and kicking .
Maybe someone can give a hint of wich bacteria we are talking, able to do what is claimed in two days.
I spent a lot of time , many years, studying the nitrogen cycle in closed systems, especially zero emission RAS, ZMAS, and reef aquaria, the different ways to maintain a propper reliable carrying capacity and to close the nitrogen cycle in a closed marine system on a safe and relaible way.

If such a wonder product exist it would be worth a lot of money! If application of the product would be cheaper as just changing water for a period of time.

The aplicationof a BADES roll during one moth of quarentine would cost less than 1$ ( not including the self made BADES roll of +- 10$ as it can be reused )

Since they produce a reduction in ammonia from 1 or 2 to 0 within 24 hours - only in the presence of sterile saltwater and ammonia - what do you think they contain???

 

[MnFish1]

What is in the bottle?
http://www.bioconlabs.com/autoheterobac.html

BTW this link says they contain nitrifiers....

 

[Belgian Anthias]

What is in the bottle?

BTW this link says they contain nitrifies....

The link contains a discussion about a publication of an artikel to promote a commercial product, published by the manufacturer. It is an example ! it is used to show how some professionals try to convince people. It is claimed it contains nitrifiers. ( in the case of BioRemid -aqua it is claimed it are lyophilized Nitrosomonas en Nitrobacter-bacteria ) Maybe some products contain viable nitrifying bacteria, there are plenty of heterotrophic nitrifiers out there. These nitrifying bacteria can NOT install a nitrifying capacity as they are r-strategists and need an organic carbon source. A lot of these nitrifiers may be dangerous see Acinetobacter sp.
In the case live autotrophic nitrifiers are added to a new aquarium, it will take 2 weeks to a month to install a nitrifying capacity. It depends of the bio-load wich one wants to support and start with.

Adding a biofilter makes managing the nitrogen content in a closed aquarium system an easy task.

For example, doubling the nitrifying capacity of an existing full operational biofilter may take a week to a month. Not only the nitrifiers have to double activity but also all other bacteria involved in building up a balanced microbial comunity which is a biofilm. They have to install conections with each other, they have to be able to comunnicate.
All these bacteria needed can not be delivered in a bottle! Even when this would be possible it would take weeks to install the balanced microbial community needed.
If a live nitrifying biofilm is used for to inoculate a new aquarium it would still take a few weeks to install a propper nitrifying capacity able to support a mixed reef aquarium.

Nature does not perform miracles.



Bacterial-based products of which the real content is not known, these products may just as well contain bacteria that can cause diseases, dangerous for humans and animals, and the cultivation of such bacteria in a closed unnatural environment can develop mutants and clades that can be dangerous for society and the environment. The use of such products should be BANNED in a closed biosystem such as a home aquarium. It should be prohibited by law as it can be dangerous for all live.

What is in the bottle?

Aplication at your own risk!?