Bacteria in bottle, busting myth, Seneye style.

[MnFish1]

What is in the bottle?




The link contains a discussion about a publication of an artikel to promote a commercial product, published by the manufacturer. It is an example ! it is used to show how some professionals try to convince people. It is claimed it contains nitrifiers. ( in the case of BioRemid -aqua it is claimed it are lyophilized Nitrosomonas en Nitrobacter-bacteria ) Maybe some products contain viable nitrifying bacteria, there are plenty of heterotrophic nitrifiers out there. These nitrifying bacteria can NOT install a nitrifying capacity as they are r-strategists and need an organic carbon source. A lot of these nitrifiers may be dangerous see Acinetobacter sp.

In the case live autotrophic nitrifiers are added to a new aquarium, it will take 2 weeks to a month to install a nitrifying capacity. It depends of the bio-load wich one wants to support and start with.

Adding a biofilter makes managing the nitrogen content in a closed aquarium system an easy task.

For example, doubling the nitrifying capacity of an existing full operational biofilter may take a week to a month. Not only the nitrifiers have to double activity but also all other bacteria involved in building up a balanced microbial comunity which is a biofilm. They have to install conections with each other, they have to be able to comunnicate.

All these bacteria needed can not be delivered in a bottle! Even when this would be possible it would take weeks to install the balanced microbial community needed.
If a live nitrifying biofilm is used for to inoculate a new aquarium it would still take a few weeks to install a propper nitrifying capacity able to support a mixed reef aquarium.

Nature does not perform miracles.



Bacterial-based products of which the real content is not known, these products may just as well contain bacteria that can cause diseases, dangerous for humans and animals, and the cultivation of such bacteria in a closed unnatural environment can develop mutants and clades that can be dangerous for society and the environment. The use of such products should be BANNED in a closed biosystem such as a home aquarium. It should be prohibited by law as it can be dangerous for all live.

What is in the bottle?

Aplication at your own risk!?

If the ammonia in a clean tank drops from 4ppm to 0 within 24 hours without a carbon source is t that pretty good evidence. With fritz turbo? With other products they only drop after addition of a carbon source. What does that tell you?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

OK so you need to re-read the other thread. LOL its well described - you dont need to come back and re-invent the same wheel you were inventing 6 months ago. No offense. You need to open your mind.

Sorry, but I do not believe in dogma's.
Proper research about the claim starts with:
What is in the bottle?
As long this basic question is not answered there is nothing to prove! There is nothing wich can be proved.

We try to find out how and why natural processes take place and why and how they may be used to our benefit!
Managing the nitrogen content of a closed marine system and close the nitrogen cycle is basic and essential housekeeping.
Trying to understand how and why it all takes place is what we do. What we have gathered over the past decades can be consulted in The Makazi Baharini Wiki.
If a claim is made we try to figure out how it fits into what is known. ( CMF De Haes)

It was explained why the claime made is not possible, why it does not fit into what is known.
No futher discussion is needed as long as the most essential information is not available from a reliable source.

Sincerely Yours
Belgian Anthias.

 

[Belgian Anthias]

If the ammonia in a clean tank drops from 4ppm to 0 within 24 hours without a carbon source is t that pretty good evidence. With fritz turbo? With other products they only drop after addition of a carbon source. What does that tell you?

That such a product may contain a kind of f2 media and amino-accids or protein, maybe no bacteria at all. Maybe it contains a chemical ammonia binder which may do more harm as the ammonia. Who will tell!? As one does not know! As one does not want to know!
Never ad products to an aquarium of wich is not known what it contains exactly. It is very bad housekeeping!

 

[Why-Me]

@Belgian Anthias
I've reported your posts now for being repetitively argumentative.
You've clearly stated your opinion. Now please stop spamming this thread with your same opinions every time someone posts something you disagree with.

 

[Why-Me]

@Belgian Anthias
There is clear info in this and the other 85+ page thread about these products and THEY WORK AS STATED FROM THE MANUFACTURER
So sorry you feel the need to repeat yourself ad nauseam.

 

[MnFish1]

That such a product may contain a kind of f2 media and amino-accids or protein, maybe no bacteria at all. Maybe it contains a chemical ammonia binder which may do more harm as the ammonia. Who will tell!? As one does not know! As one does not want to know!
Never ad products to an aquarium of wich is not known what it contains exactly. It is very bad housekeeping!

In general I agree that it makes sense to not add products which contain unknown ingredients. These products do state what they contain:
FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 contains the same proven strains of effective, live nitrifying bacteria as FritzZyme® 9, but at 15 times the concentration. FritzZyme® TurboStart® 900 reduces fish loss due to toxic levels of ammonia and nitrite.

This is about the same level of ingredient as any supplement we might buy and use.

In any case - instead of repeating the same articles - why don't you state why you think the products tested worked the way they did? I personally have used both Fritz and stability - and never had problems. So - who is to say that they are not a better way to perform the job one is trying to achieve?

 

[Belgian Anthias]

I just answer people who have responded on my explaination of facts!.
Not propperly founded information for commercial purposes? I think that is what it is all about!
I am forced to find out to what is really in the bottle. So we will send samples for a bacterial count and other content to find out what it is all about!
Based on the results we then can form an idea of how such a product works exactly.
Discussion closed till futher notice.

The articles in ref wich are used repeatedly contain the information I have used, Information gathered from propper research . When protected information is used it is common practice to credit the author. In this case the used protected information only may be used when a link is added to the original publication. We take things seriously

 

[Why-Me]

@Belgian Anthias

"Not propperly founded information for commercial purposes?"
Public aquariums nationwide (america) use dr tims to cycle their huge systems so they can put fish in right away for public viewing.
You are not FORCED to do anything!! You are the most stubborn person I've met on the internet and that's saying a lot!
Seriously there's proper research done here by Dr. Reef. Just because you don't accept the results doesn't mean they're wrong!

Are you being paid to post on here and sidetrack this thread?

@Belgian Anthias
Start your own thread about how these are all fake products PLEASE!!!!!

 

[Belgian Anthias]

@Belgian Anthias

"Not propperly founded information for commercial purposes?"
Public aquariums nationwide (america) use dr tims to cycle their huge systems so they can put fish in right away for public viewing.
You are not FORCED to do anything!! You are the most stubborn person I've met on the internet and that's saying a lot!
Seriously there's proper research done here by Dr. Reef. Just because you don't accept the results doesn't mean they're wrong!

Are you being paid to post on here and sidetrack this thread?

@Belgian Anthias
Start your own thread about how these are all fake products PLEASE!!!!!

It is claimed that a product containing nitrifying bacteria is able to condition a system in 2 days. I provided the information to say this is NOT possible
I never said it are fake products, I said the discussion and information is not founded wich means there is no base on wich it may be proved.
We will restart the discussion after knowing the results from different neutral university labs.

 

[Why-Me]

@Belgian Anthias
Also a reminder here in the USA False advertising is the use of false, misleading, or unproven information to advertise products to consumers. The advertising frequently does not disclose its source.[1][2] One form of false advertising is to claim that a product has a health benefit or contains vitamins or minerals that it in fact does not.[3] Many governments use regulations to control false advertising.

By all means please put your money where your mouth is and start a lawsuit against these companies for false advertisement since you seem to know what they contain while simultaneously asking what's in the bottle ad nauseam.
But also be warned at the minimum; they can bring you to court for slander of their product and their image if you go around shouting unsubstantiated nonsense that affects their business.

 

[KStatefan]

I know I've been silent on here lately @Dr. Reef but I can't begin to express my gratitude for all of the time and effort you have put into this testing. You are doing the reefing community and tremendous service.

This does not get said enough.

Threads like this are great.

 

[eatbreakfast]

Please keep from making personal attacks. Even if a member is belligerent, do not resort to personal aspersions.

However, also keep to the subject at hand. If there is nothing new to add, don't keep posting the same thing.

 

[DLHDesign]

What is in the bottle?

What makes up the sun? Or the stars? The planets we've not been to? The middle of the Earth?

We can't KNOW those things. We can only observe the effects those things have on their surroundings and make guesses (hopefully educated ones) about their makeup. And while some people spend their whole lives trying to determine with more certainty what makes up our sun, stars, and planets - others spend their lives seeking to better understand how those same objects act and react to the universe around them. Both of those types of people have valid goals.

This thread is not about what is in the bottles - this is not a "what makes up the sun" thread. This thread is about the impact the bottles have on their environment - this is a "what effect does the sun have on us" thread. Knowing something about the former can certainly inform the latter, true. But even without that information, we can see patterns and watch for reactions to determine the answer to the question "what does this do?". And that, too, is scientific. And that, too, has value.

If it helps to define the parameters here; this testing would be considered a "blinded experiment".

 

[MnFish1]

What makes up the sun? Or the stars? The planets we've not been to? The middle of the Earth?

We can't KNOW those things. We can only observe the effects those things have on their surroundings and make guesses (hopefully educated ones) about their makeup. And while some people spend their whole lives trying to determine with more certainty what makes up our sun, stars, and planets - others spend their lives seeking to better understand how those same objects act and react to the universe around them. Both of those types of people have valid goals.

This thread is not about what is in the bottles - this is not a "what makes up the sun" thread. This thread is about the impact the bottles have on their environment - this is a "what effect does the sun have on us" thread. Knowing something about the former can certainly inform the latter, true. But even without that information, we can see patterns and watch for reactions to determine the answer to the question "what does this do?". And that, too, is scientific. And that, too, has value.

If it helps to define the parameters here; this testing would be considered a "blinded experiment".

Well - actually I dont think this is a blinded experiment (which would be the person reading the results did not know which tank contained which product). That said - I agree completely with what you said above - the study to see which product was carefully designed by several scientists here - with much discussion and consideration. Additional recommendation was obtained from a couple of the companies... (some of whose products did not perform that well)

 

[hart24601]

Bacterial-based products of which the real content is not known, these products may just as well contain bacteria that can cause diseases, dangerous for humans and animals, and the cultivation of such bacteria in a closed unnatural environment can develop mutants and clades that can be dangerous for society and the environment. The use of such products should be BANNED in a closed biosystem such as a home aquarium. It should be prohibited by law as it can be dangerous for all live.

So.... you think these contain pathogens and will develop mutants that are dangerous for society so they need to be banned....

Yep, seems totally reasonable and not crazy at all.

On another subject, are you a conspiracy theorist? Vaccines, flat earth, moon landing?

 

[MnFish1]

Sorry, but I do not believe in dogma's.
Proper research about the claim starts with:
What is in the bottle?
As long this basic question is not answered there is nothing to prove! There is nothing wich can be proved.

We try to find out how and why natural processes take place and why and how they may be used to our benefit!
Managing the nitrogen content of a closed marine system and close the nitrogen cycle is basic and essential housekeeping.
Trying to understand how and why it all takes place is what we do. What we have gathered over the past decades can be consulted in The Makazi Baharini Wiki.
If a claim is made we try to figure out how it fits into what is known. ( CMF De Haes)

It was explained why the claime made is not possible, why it does not fit into what is known.
No futher discussion is needed as long as the most essential information is not available from a reliable source.

Sincerely Yours
Belgian Anthias.

No it doesn't - to me its 'does the product work'. If it works - then by definition its not 'impossible'. There are many new types of bacteria that much research has show are very significant in the nitrification cycle (archaea) for example. They are very hardy organisms. Other nitrifiers (nitrobacteria, etc) can go dormant - esp in cool conditions. So - this product (at least the Fritz one) is kept cold.

 

[DLHDesign]

Well - actually I dont think this is a blinded experiment (which would be the person reading the results did not know which tank contained which product).

My thinking was that since we don't know what's in the bottles, we (@Dr. Reef, really) are the "blind" ones running the experiment. The bottles may as well be labeled "A", "B", and "C" for all we know about them...
But I'll certainly concede the rather irrelevant point; totally fine not calling this a "blind experiment".

 

[MnFish1]

So.... you think these contain pathogens and will develop mutants that are dangerous for society so they need to be banned....

Yep, seems totally reasonable and not crazy at all.

On another subject, are you a conspiracy theorist? Vaccines, flat earth, moon landing?

I

My thinking was that since we don't know what's in the bottles, we (@Dr. Reef, really) are the "blind" ones running the experiment. The bottles may as well be labeled "A", "B", and "C" for all we know about them...
But I'll certainly concede the rather irrelevant point; totally fine not calling this a "blind experiment".

HAHAAH A. I get it - All I was saying is that - in reality - many of this type of experiment would indeed be 'blinded' - i.e. the person measuring the ammonia would not know which product was in which tank. For our purposes its irrelevant - from the science perspective - its very relevant (not for this experiment - but in general). I was just waiting for another poster to make a deal out of it

 

[Dr. Reef]

so guys i came up on this test. how can this help us in our study.
https://www.hach.com/bart-test-for-nitrifying-bacteria-pk-7/product?id=7640250882

 

[MnFish1]

so guys i came up on this test. how can this help us in our study.
https://www.hach.com/bart-test-for-nitrifying-bacteria-pk-7/product?id=7640250882

So do you think its a nitrate test