Anyone detect clear evidence of a fluoride effect?

[KrisReef]

I am skeptical of any real significant changes with the fluoride dosing.

I'd also like to make it clear that the first photo from back in july was just one that I happened to have. I was not at that time thinking let's do a photographic investigation.

Going forward, I will make more of an effort to get a picture that is under the same lighting conditions.

I have been chuckling at this photographic situation, and I understand that you were not trying to provide documentation for color improvement when you took the pictures. I chuckled because the image controversy that popped up is remarkably similar to the issues that people report on when they purchase coral online and the backlash from the board is very similar.

You are growing very nice colonies and that’s what I was applauding. I have very limited iPhone picture ability and I completely understand how you got the pictures you posted. I have given up trying to capture growth over time because of the difficulty of lighting and angles and focus management over time

I can’t do it.

Sorry for the hijack, I am going to follow the Floride discussion and see if we can figure something out.

 

[Reefahholic]

As many experienced hobbits, I've encountered many people who swear by whatever solution they are currently dosing. But when you dig deeper into the details, it often becomes clear that many other changes were made simultaneously, making it virtually impossible to correlate cause and effect.

100% agree. Extremely difficult to pin things down in this hobby. So many variables and fluctuations that happen from day to day in a reef.

 

[Pod_01]

Hmmmm….. I see a trend:

I tend to be more of a just feed heavy and things tend to work out. That's been working for me for the last 20 or so years.

So just for clarification, is this feeding corals or feeding the fish?

From my experience, I observed that feeding fish is beneficial. Feeding corals with coral food not so beneficial (I suspect I am not doing it right).

I had to ask, the SPS corals look real nice and healthy.

 

[cilyjr]

Hmmmm….. I see a trend:


So just for clarification, is this feeding corals or feeding the fish?

From my experience, I observed that feeding fish is beneficial. Feeding corals with coral food not so beneficial (I suspect I am not doing it right).

I had to ask, the SPS corals look real nice and healthy.

2 or 3 times a week I broadcast feed polyplab reefroids. I will try using an amino acid (acro power) before I broadcast feed but I forget a lot.

Fish get a cube of a frozen, recently it's been rods original, and an auto feeder feeds new life spectrum pellets a few times a day.

This has been reasonably standard since this aquarium was set up in Feb 2023.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

Anyone see a clear effect of any sort in a reef tank when starting or stopping dosing of just fluoride and nothing else?

Yes. All variables the same. I corrected iodine, manganese, iron, zinc, vanadium in that order. Over a period of 2 months. Initially i was trying to track down better colors in SPS. I also noticed when i did water changes, my polyp extension was better that night or the next day and would gradually fall back off.

Several ICP tests were low on flourine. Around 7/30/24 I finally dosed sodium flouride from .6ppm to 1.5ppm and saw a night and day difference in SPS polyp extension, notably very good PE during day time which was not usual.

Have a buddy who has also seen the same when i gave him some to dose into his tank that was also low.

I personally believe flouride to be a critical trace for a heaviily stocked SPS system, on the assumption better PE = happier/healthier coral. I have some.better coloration but nothing observable from flouride alone nor materially different.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

@Reefahholic : I see also change on my Acropora colonies. It looks like Fluoride has an impact on the density of the zooxanthellae .... But with high corrections (0,5 mg/liter) in a small time I ran into problems with RTN. I use NaFl by the way. The affected Acroporas were deepwater species (Carduus) and a Valida Colony. I have noticed no impact on LPS and Zoas.

I did a correction between .5-1ppm within 36hrs or less and noted no negative issues. I think i broke the corrective dose into thirds or quarters from .6-1.5ppm

 

[Marc Pardon]

I did a correction between .5-1ppm within 36hrs or less and noted no negative issues. I think i broke the corrective dose into thirds or quarters from .6-1.5ppm

I think I made the mistake to make a high concentrated mix from 27 gram NaFl with 1 liter RO water. After this RTN event I changed to a more diluted version and changed in small doses each day.

 

[ReeferZ1227]

I think I made the mistake to make a high concentrated mix from 27 gram NaFl with 1 liter RO water. After this RTN event I changed to a more diluted version and changed in small doses each day.

Well when doing a correction, the concentration doesnt matter so much IMO. I used the "Reef Minerals" from BRS which has a roughly 2x strength of reef moonshiners, triton, ATI, etc.

Im going to DIY once i finish up with this bottle. Waiting on an ICP now to see where im at. I definitely notice improved PE if i slack on flouride or dose lower maintenance doses, then resume a little heavier.

Bit fearful of OD until the next ICP but based on another heavily stocked SPS tank (@billyocean) it seems consumption can be around 25ppb/day - dosing 12ml of a 2.2g NaF / liter stock solution (the reefmoonshiner concentration) into a 454L system volume. I suspect its not a linear relationship and perhaps once it reaches lower levels of .6-.8 it doesnt get consumed as quick. Just a guess though as you never really hear about it being "bottomed out" even in tanks that dont WC or correct it.

 

[Marc Pardon]

IMO the concentration does matter. With a high concentrated dose you get a "cloud" of fluorine in your tank which seems to irritate some Acroporas.

No it does not bottom out ..... my minimum level is always 0,5 mg/liter when I stop dosing. Some measurements from the past ( I don't know how accurate ATI this can measure) :

I change only 5% water a month. But there is obvious the effect wich Craig Bingman showed in his investigation from long a go :

https://web.archive.org/web/20030101180144/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/2000/jan/bio/default.asp

It would be nice to hear his thoughts about this subject after all these years .....

 

[exnisstech]

Now the question to ask. Is it colour change or filter change or time of the day the photo was taken colour shift?

Both of these photos were completely unedited. They were shot with a pixel 7 pro with an orphek orange lens.

The camera definitely made color changes as can be seen easiest by comparing the substrate color marked with an arrow. Probably the only way to get accurate color or at least consistent color would be to use full manual settings under identical lighting. Even then the color can be rendered differently on different devices so everyone may not even see the same color. The zoas are also a different color. It's one of the reasons it's so difficult to even have discussions about color using digital media unless everyone has the same calibrated display.

EDIT : the green on the monti looks more saturated as well in the second image.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Research suggested that boron and fluoride are both necessary for stabilizing iodine,

Who claims that?

How could fluoride possibly stabilize iodide?

 

[ReeferZ1227]

IMO the concentration does matter. With a high concentrated dose you get a "cloud" of fluorine in your tank which seems to irritate some Acroporas.

No it does not bottom out ..... my minimum level is always 0,5 mg/liter when I stop dosing. Some measurements from the past ( I don't know how accurate ATI this can measure) :

I change only 5% water a month. But there is obvious the effect wich Craig Bingman showed in his investigation from long a go :

https://web.archive.org/web/20030101180144/www.animalnetwork.com/fish2/aqfm/2000/jan/bio/default.asp

It would be nice to hear his thoughts about this subject after all these years .....

I agree with the notion that concentrated doses can upset coral, thats why anything sensitive goes closest to the drain in my sump as possible. That said, unless dosing into the display, i have to imagine between dilution and duration before dilution id be surprised to see flouride have adverse effects, but i cant refute what you observed.

Your 27g/l NaF is a minimum 6-11x stronger than any other commercial products that I am aware of.

 

[Heres_doe_]

Who claims that?

How could fluoride possibly stabilize iodide?

Well this is from chat gpt. Idk how true this is.
In a reef tank, fluoride can stabilize iodide through indirect chemical and biological processes, which might include:

1. **Biogeochemical Cycling**: Fluoride and iodide can both participate in the biogeochemical processes within a reef tank. Fluoride might help to maintain the proper ionic balance in the water, which in turn could stabilize iodide by ensuring that the overall chemical environment remains consistent.

2. **Ionic Interaction with Calcium**: In reef tanks, calcium and other minerals are crucial for coral growth. Fluoride can interact with calcium ions, influencing the precipitation and dissolution of calcium carbonate. By stabilizing the water chemistry, fluoride may help to prevent iodide from precipitating out of solution, keeping it available for biological processes.

3. **Inhibition of Halogen Displacement**: Fluoride is a more reactive halogen than iodide. In certain conditions, the presence of fluoride may inhibit chemical reactions that could otherwise oxidize or displace iodide, thereby keeping it in its reduced, stable form (I⁻) within the water column.

4. **Impact on Microbial Communities**: Fluoride can also affect the microbial communities in a reef tank. Some bacteria that process halogens might be influenced by the presence of fluoride, which could indirectly influence the stability and availability of iodide by altering the way these bacteria interact with iodine compounds.

Overall, in a reef tank, fluoride likely stabilizes iodide by maintaining the water's ionic balance, influencing mineral precipitation, and affecting the microbial processing of halogens. However, this effect is complex and context-dependent, varying with water chemistry, tank inhabitants, and other environmental factors.

 

[Pod_01]

Who claims that?

How could fluoride possibly stabilize iodide?

I recall something like this being mentioned by FM… from the videos on YouTube.

From FM database:

I don’t believe they get into “how” this works…

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

Well this is from chat gpt. Idk how true this is.
In a reef tank, fluoride can stabilize iodide through indirect chemical and biological processes, which might include:

1. **Biogeochemical Cycling**: Fluoride and iodide can both participate in the biogeochemical processes within a reef tank. Fluoride might help to maintain the proper ionic balance in the water, which in turn could stabilize iodide by ensuring that the overall chemical environment remains consistent.

2. **Ionic Interaction with Calcium**: In reef tanks, calcium and other minerals are crucial for coral growth. Fluoride can interact with calcium ions, influencing the precipitation and dissolution of calcium carbonate. By stabilizing the water chemistry, fluoride may help to prevent iodide from precipitating out of solution, keeping it available for biological processes.

3. **Inhibition of Halogen Displacement**: Fluoride is a more reactive halogen than iodide. In certain conditions, the presence of fluoride may inhibit chemical reactions that could otherwise oxidize or displace iodide, thereby keeping it in its reduced, stable form (I⁻) within the water column.

4. **Impact on Microbial Communities**: Fluoride can also affect the microbial communities in a reef tank. Some bacteria that process halogens might be influenced by the presence of fluoride, which could indirectly influence the stability and availability of iodide by altering the way these bacteria interact with iodine compounds.

Overall, in a reef tank, fluoride likely stabilizes iodide by maintaining the water's ionic balance, influencing mineral precipitation, and affecting the microbial processing of halogens. However, this effect is complex and context-dependent, varying with water chemistry, tank inhabitants, and other environmental factors.

The only one of those which makes any conceivable sense is that fluoride can partly inhibit certain iodide transporters where organisms are trying to take up iodide. I don’t know if that happens to marine organisms at seawater concentrations, but if it did, then by that same sort of idea, an herbicide that killed macroalgae would stabilize iodide in the water.

Thus, I would not suggest folks accept that stabilize iodide idea.

 

[Randy Holmes-Farley]

I recall something like this being mentioned by FM… from the videos on YouTube.

From FM database:

I don’t believe they get into “how” this works…

I did read many wild claims for fluoride by FM without any supporting evidence or rationale.

 

[moosevandyke]

@cilyjr very nice color improvement!

I noticed my blues on acros like Oregon tort pop!

 

[Righteous]

Well this is from chat gpt. Idk how true this is.
In a reef tank, fluoride can stabilize iodide through indirect chemical and biological processes, which might include:

1. **Biogeochemical Cycling**: Fluoride and iodide can both participate in the biogeochemical processes within a reef tank. Fluoride might help to maintain the proper ionic balance in the water, which in turn could stabilize iodide by ensuring that the overall chemical environment remains consistent.

2. **Ionic Interaction with Calcium**: In reef tanks, calcium and other minerals are crucial for coral growth. Fluoride can interact with calcium ions, influencing the precipitation and dissolution of calcium carbonate. By stabilizing the water chemistry, fluoride may help to prevent iodide from precipitating out of solution, keeping it available for biological processes.

3. **Inhibition of Halogen Displacement**: Fluoride is a more reactive halogen than iodide. In certain conditions, the presence of fluoride may inhibit chemical reactions that could otherwise oxidize or displace iodide, thereby keeping it in its reduced, stable form (I⁻) within the water column.

4. **Impact on Microbial Communities**: Fluoride can also affect the microbial communities in a reef tank. Some bacteria that process halogens might be influenced by the presence of fluoride, which could indirectly influence the stability and availability of iodide by altering the way these bacteria interact with iodine compounds.

Overall, in a reef tank, fluoride likely stabilizes iodide by maintaining the water's ionic balance, influencing mineral precipitation, and affecting the microbial processing of halogens. However, this effect is complex and context-dependent, varying with water chemistry, tank inhabitants, and other environmental factors.

I work in the software space. Please please do not use ChatGPT or other AI for a reliable information source.

All the AI language models work by predicting the best set of words to follow based on statistics from ingesting large amounts of data. So ultimately if there is garbage in you will get garbage out. It can reassemble language it finds on the internet from any random post.

This problem in the AI space is called “hallucination” and no AI system has yet solved it, so please don’t use it for accurate information.

Hallucination (artificial intelligence) - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[Pod_01]

I did read many wild claims for fluoride by FM without any supporting evidence or rationale.

Yes they do make many claims and the only evidence is look at our farm. They are just vague on what exactly is dosed at the farm. I would be shocked if they use all of their bottles…

Somewhat unrelated/ related question Randy. When dosing or correcting F value, is it better to dose into sump, display or is it better to add it to ATO so it gets added slowly over few days?

 

[cilyjr]

The camera definitely made color changes as can be seen easiest by comparing the substrate color marked with an arrow. Probably the only way to get accurate color or at least consistent color would be to use full manual settings under identical lighting. Even then the color can be rendered differently on different devices so everyone may not even see the same color. The zoas are also a different color. It's one of the reasons it's so difficult to even have discussions about color using digital media unless everyone has the same calibrated display.

EDIT : the green on the monti looks more saturated as well in the second image.

Ok . Then maybe I should not bother with the photos.