Water volume expansion reservoir?

[BeanAnimal]

I've already addressed this in previous comments.

I have a very successful refugium. I have to dose nitrate and phosphate to keep my levels above zero. This is starting to become a common "problem" these days. I have absolutely no problem letting detritus digest in that chamber. It will allow me to dose less and run my refugium brighter and longer, resulting in greater oxygen production at night and a larger PH boost.

I'm totally fine with that "downside".

The purpose of the refugium is nutrient export.
Driving levels too low? Then light it less hours per day for less growth or keep the ball of macro smaller or don't feed it as much... Or take the macro out of it and put rocks in there for pod hotels....

The detritus will settle somewhere, you don't need an extra container to make it happen.

This whole thread is traveling down the silly slide.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Again you can re-describe a sump any way you wish... it is a sump.

This is getting beyond silly.

It is very silly for you to keep playing word games with me when you could just show me a single sump that fits my criteria that was made by anyone, ever, and this whole dumb argument about novelty can be over. Your apology is waiting for you.

The purpose of the refugium is nutrient export.
Driving level too low, then light it less for less growth or keep the ball of macro smaller or don't feed it as much...

The detritus will settle somewhere, you don't need an extra container to make it happen.

This whole thread is traveling down the silly slide.

That is ONE purpose of a refugium. The other is to increase system stability by decreasing the PH swing at night and helping to increase the dissolved oxygen in the water. Maybe you weren't aware that it had those effects? Either way, I'm kind of a fan of system stability, in case you couldn't tell.

 

[BeanAnimal]

It is very silly for you to keep playing word games with me when you could just show me a single sump that fits my criteria that was made by anyone, ever, and this whole dumb argument about novelty can be over. Your apology is waiting for you.

What criteria? Insulation and a lid with no equipment in it? Shall we also get exact dimensions and color of the sump or container to be sure? A plastic container has a lower emissivity than does a glass container.... Shall we consider the plastic insulated compared to the glass? See how silly that sounds?

Again you are stuck in the semantics here trying to differentiate between the same things.

That is ONE purpose of a refugium. The other is to increase system stability by decreasing the PH swing at night and helping to increase the dissolved oxygen in the water. Maybe you weren't aware that it had those effects? Either way, I'm kind of a fan of system stability, in case you couldn't tell.

I am well aware of how a reverse lighting cycle affects CO2

You want to strip everything out and pour it back in -- go for it. Plenty of people use that paradigm to run successful reefs.


You buying a house... Maybe skim less
Maybe add a frag growout tank on a reverse lighting cycle instead of your empty sump.

The whole point here is that you have proposed simply adding water volume by adding another tank onto the system and proposing that added water be in a vessel that serves no other purpose other than to increase system volume....


Here are the conical bottom containers that I originally designed my settling tank around.

Tamco® Heavy Duty Cone Bottom Tanks | U.S. Plastic Corp.

These cone bottom tanks are designed for ease of mixing and dispensing of liquids up to 1.7 specific gravity.

www.usplastic.com

If you research old posts at ReefCentral you will find several builds where a large HDPE or similar container was plumbed inline with the sump but separated by isolation valves. The idea was to mix new SW in the large container, open the valve and let it become part of the system. An effective volume increase. At water change time, the isolation valves are closed and the container drained to the sewer. The tank refilled with new SW and the valves opened again.

Rinse repeat. An easy and effective way to do LARGE water changes without shutting down the system or draining the sump or display.

I used such a system for the first 2-3 years that I had a reef.


Thanks for the conversation - I am going to move on now. Happy reefing and best of luck!

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

What criteria? Insulation and a lid with no equipment in it? Shall we also get exact dimensions and color of the sump or container to be sure? The R value of the "insulation" as a plastic container has a lower emissivity than does a glass container.... See how silly that sounds?

Show me what I described in my first post. A remote sump which uses gravity to feed water back into the main sump, which is sealed to prevent evaporation, and insulated to prevent heat changes, which is then hidden inside a wooden box.

I'm not moving the goalposts on you. The criteria has been the same since page 1. You're deliberately pretending to be confused.

You can't show a single example.

The whole point here is that you have proposed simply adding water volume by adding another tank onto the system and proposing that added water be in a vessel that serves no other purpose other than to increase system volume....

Yes. That's the idea. I'm glad you finally understand what I'm saying. I want to do that, while also minimizing the downsides of the alternative ways to accomplish that same goal. Which I believe that I did.

Once again present your evidence that someone has done this before or stop being petulant and weirdly aggressive.

EDIT: You keep editing your posts after I type a response. I would respond to your points that you added late, but you said you've moved on, so I won't.

 

[RedoubtReef]

Just seems easier to diy a huge sump out of a rubbermaid stock tank

right!

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Just seems easier to diy a huge sump out of a rubbermaid stock tank

Obviously it is easier. It's a totally valid way to go. I'm not saying anyone is doing anything wrong.

This alternative doesn't work for me though. I don't have the huge amount of floor space for a huge stock tank, and I don't want to deal with all the evaporation that all that exposed water surface would create. Evaporation cools water, so it would also increase the heating that I need to supply, which would increase my electric bill. All those and more are my personal reasons that I wouldn't go that route.

Again, I'm not saying your wrong. God knows I really don't need another super aggressive idea-defender in here raising my stress level. The stock tank idea just doesn't work for me.

 

[BeanAnimal]

Show me what I described in my first post. A remote sump which uses gravity to feed water back into the main sump

A sump is gravity fed. A common configuration with dual sumps is to have one feed another, either by gravity or by a common pipe (water seeks its own level). Both setups are extremely common. Some people use a small sump under the display and it then drains to a basement sump before going back to the display.

, which is sealed to prevent evaporation, and insulated to prevent heat changes, which is then hidden inside a wooden box.

Sumps with lids are very common and prevent evaporation and salt creep... often hidden in a wooden box called a stand... but sometimes in adjacent structures or rooms.

So is the "wooden box" the novel part? Because the sump and the lid and insulation sure are not... So again are we down to the shape of the box, the thickness of the insulation, the color of the box what?

As I said, I am moving on.... this entire thread is silly. Have fun with your sump. Maybe you can get it patented

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

A sump is gravity fed. A common configuration with dual sumps is to have one feed another, either by gravity or by a common pipe (water seeks its own level). Both setups are extremely common. Some people use a small sump under the display and it then drains to a basement sump before going back to the display.

Yea, and overflows systems are a weir with some kind of drainage system behind them, often some kind of standpipe, which drains water into a sump. Overflows are extremely common. And yet, you designed a special one, didn't you?

As I said, I am moving on.... this entire thread is silly. Have fun with your sump. Maybe you can get it patented

I don't want a patent. I don't want glory. I just want to talk about the pros and cons of the setup that I described in the first post. Why are you so hellbent on not allowing me to do that?

Also, why don't you ever actually answer any question that I've asked?

Did you get a speeding ticket on your way to work this morning, and come looking for a fight online to blow off steam or something?

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

A sump is gravity fed. A common configuration with dual sumps is to have one feed another, either by gravity or by a common pipe (water seeks its own level). Both setups are extremely common. Some people use a small sump under the display and it then drains to a basement sump before going back to the display.


Sumps with lids are very common and prevent evaporation and salt creep... often hidden in a wooden box called a stand... but sometimes in adjacent structures or rooms.

So is the "wooden box" the novel part? Because the sump and the lid and insulation sure are not... So again are we down to the shape of the box, the thickness of the insulation, the color of the box what?

The combination of those things are the novel part. Each serves a purpose.

Was anything in your BeanAnimal overflow a novel part? Because I thought you said you didn't invent any part of it? Or was it the combination of all the parts you novel idea?

 

[BeanAnimal]

The combination of those things are the novel part. Each serves a purpose.

Was anything in your BeanAnimal overflow a novel part? Because I thought you said you didn't invent any part of it? Or was it the combination of all the parts you novel idea?

Sir, nothing you have proposed is novel. You are describing a sump with no equipment in it, no more no less no matter how you word it. The "combination" of things you list is common and has been for decades. What you are attempting to do is "patent" minutia that is irrelevant. Putting the "sump" in a wooden box does not alter or improve the function of the sump. Want to call the box "insulation" great - still an insulated sump. Want to glue the lid on, great it is still a sump with a lid. None of these things or combination of things change the way that it functions or are functionally any different that what has been done for decades.

This thread is not about my overflow design or how it came about or it's novelty. The very mention of it is a straw man tangent that has nothing to do with the topic.

I have lost patience and interest with this conversation, it is pointless.

 

[PotatoPig]

I skimmed a bit - couldn’t you just grab a 55gallon drum, have the drain line go to the bottom of it, then have the drain from the drum to the sump punched near the top with a bulkhead. This would put the drum exit above the sump (assuming on the same floor…) so it would gravity drain into the sump.

You could insulate by wrapping in a yoga mat held in place by bungee cords (if looks not important. Two mats if you want. Not perfect but with no evaporation from this it isn’t your weakest link for heat loss.

Could put some egg crate on bricks in the bottom with some rock above for a cryptic fuge, with flow generated by the tank drain exiting below the egg crate.

For maintenance you just pop the lid - nothing is under pressure.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Sir, nothing you have proposed is novel. You are describing a sump with no equipment in it, no more no less no matter how you word it. The "combination" of things you list is common and has been for decades. What you are attempting to do is "patent" minutia that is irrelevant. Putting the "sump" in a wooden box does not alter or improve the function of the sump. Want to call the box "insulation" great - still an insulation sump. Want to glue the lid on, great it is still a sump with a lid. None of these things or combination of things change the way that it functions or are functionally any different that what has been done for decades.

This thread is not about my overflow design or how it came about or it's novelty. The very mention of it is a straw man tangent that has nothing to do with the topic.

I have lost patience with this conversation, it is pointless.

Then simply show me just one other person who has ever combined these elements in the way I describe and I promise you that I will write you the most heartfelt, cringey, public love letter full of grovelling and apologies that I am capable of writing.

I'm dead serious.

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

I skimmed a bit - couldn’t you just grab a 55gallon drum, have the drain line go to the bottom of it, then have the drain from the drum to the sump punched near the top with a bulkhead. This would put the drum exit above the sump (assuming on the same floor…) so it would gravity drain into the sump.

You could insulate by wrapping in a yoga mat held in place by bungee cords (if looks not important. Two mats if you want. Not perfect but with no evaporation from this it isn’t your weakest link for heat loss.

Could put some egg crate on bricks in the bottom with some rock above for a cryptic fuge, with flow generated by the tank drain exiting below the egg crate.

For maintenance you just pop the lid - nothing is under pressure.

That's the idea in a nutshell, yea. I'm just lazy and I don't want to do maintenance if I can avoid it. And I don't want to have an ugly barrel wrapped in foam visible to visitors, so I'd put the whole thing in a fake cabinet or something. My main sump is under my display in a stand. So this contraption would have to sit next to the display.

 

[Derrick0580]

I’m just trying to figure out how you would keep the expansion tank filled to the level you want. It would almost have to move through the sump laterally then drain into the expansion by gravity then back into dislplay by return pump. Basically bulk head drilled into sump at level you wish to keep the sump at and that plumbed into top of expansion tank at the top. So you’re talking either a sump that’s super high in the air, putting display even higher if the expansion is not going to take large square footage because I’m picturing a 55 gallon drum being around 4 ft tall or taller. Most sumps are 16-24” tall with 7-10 inches of water, round that out to an even 5 foot with expansion below it….and we are looking at display tank being 7-9 feet in the air if you expect to take up minimal sq footage, otherwise of you want a normal height display you are back to the sump being beside the tank and taking up a big foot print. Imo diy a stand and diy a sump even out of a aqueon tank that is 75+ gallons for the extra volume, or just buy a bigger display tank

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

I’m just trying to figure out how you would keep the expansion tank filled to the level you want. It would almost have to move through the sump laterally then drain into the expansion by gravity then back into dislplay by return pump. Basically bulk head drilled into sump at level you wish to keep the sump at and that plumbed into top of expansion tank at the top. So you’re talking either a sump that’s super high in the air, putting display even higher if the expansion is not going to take large square footage because I’m picturing a 55 gallon drum being around 4 ft tall or taller. Most sumps are 16-24” tall with 7-10 inches of water, round that out to an even 5 foot with expansion below it….and we are looking at display tank being 7-9 feet in the air if you expect to take up minimal sq footage, otherwise of you want a normal height display you are back to the sump being beside the tank and taking up a big foot print. Imo diy a stand and diy a sump even out of a aqueon tank that is 75+ gallons for the extra volume, or just buy a bigger display tank

I assume you're talking about the remote cistern not the gigantic stock tank? If you're talking about the stock tank setup, my bad. I misunderstood.

I attempted to draw you an incredibly terrible diagram in MSPaint to communicate how I was planning on handling the plumbing and water level in my barrel expansion. I would probably use a couple of bulkheads on the barrel and some plumbing inside to add water from the bottom, and extract water from the top using some kind of overflow or standpipe.

 

[Derrick0580]

Wouldn’t the detritus and other crap your floss or socks normally catch just settle in the expansion tank if it isn’t filtered first?

 

[Erasmus Crowley]

Wouldn’t the detritus and other crap your floss or socks normally catch just settle in the expansion tank if it isn’t filtered first?

Because I don't want to type out the answer to this question for the third time in this same thread.

I have a very successful refugium. I have to dose nitrate and phosphate to keep my levels above zero. This is starting to become a common "problem" these days. I have absolutely no problem letting detritus digest in that chamber. It will allow me to dose less and run my refugium brighter and longer, resulting in greater oxygen production at night and a larger PH boost.

I'm totally fine with that "downside".

 

[JCM]

Wanting the detritus to accumulate and/or dosing nutrients for the sake of having a refugium seems crazy. Oxygen levels should be fine assuming you have a skimmer and enough flow. Ph swinging day to night is completely natural and I've never seen any research suggesting that eliminating it would be beneficial. If a higher overall ph is the goal, why not use some sort of kalk/hydroxide, or look at co2 levels in the house.

Your idea will work fine, no issues there. It just seems like an odd (complicated, cumbersome) way to solve problems that have easier solutions.

I've seen plenty of people adding water volume in a similar fashion, but it's always served another purpose from what I've seen. Extra live rock, dsb, frag tank, etc.

 

[62518161]

A sump is gravity fed. A common configuration with dual sumps is to have one feed another, either by gravity or by a common pipe (water seeks its own level). Both setups are extremely common. Some people use a small sump under the display and it then drains to a basement sump before going back to the display.


Sumps with lids are very common and prevent evaporation and salt creep... often hidden in a wooden box called a stand... but sometimes in adjacent structures or rooms.

So is the "wooden box" the novel part? Because the sump and the lid and insulation sure are not... So again are we down to the shape of the box, the thickness of the insulation, the color of the box what?

As I said, I am moving on.... this entire thread is silly. Have fun with your sump. Maybe you can get it patented

Please move on.

 

[hart24601]

Didn’t our famous chemist Randy have pretty much this with 3 brute cans he plumbed together alongside his sump a decade or two ago? He filled his with rock but it was covered. I think he did upflow to minimize the detritus build up.