Understanding Vibrant: Algaefix, Polixetonium Chloride / Busan 77

[Terence]

I would like to see said company to say what's truly in the bottle without having to get on your livestream. They said they would produce what's in the bottle to a message they sent a member from R2R, but have yet to produce it.

Data, and not talk is what the majority want to see. We have seen data from the OP, lets see data from said company.

I would love to see it, but with a true open forum. Yes rules for bashing and other crap no one wants to hear would be needed. I am simply saying

Ignore names as they have no relevance to any one. Plus not in any order.

Bob asks question
Ted can answer
Ted ask question
Bob can answer
They can then debate the topic at hand.

More of like no pre submitted question, follow ups allowed, etc.

I'd prefer it if that discussion was done on this sub forum to be retained and searchable. Can be restricted to just the parties involved. No peanut gallery. Unless the podcast is being transcript and posted where it can be located and perhaps then later separately discussed amongst the general public.

There's no getting around the fact something like this will get discussed outside the parameters that would make the manufacturer comfortable.

I get all of this but if a manufacturer does not feel comfortable in this format (due to the reasons I have put forth earlier), or for any other reason, then I think a livestream where intelligent and reasonable people can ask questions and challenge answers is both another option and better than not hearing from them at all. Especially if those invited have the credentials and knowledge to speak and challenge.

And, as far as transcript, it is right there available in every YouTube video for you to read, examine, download, post, etc. The moment it is finished, there you have it.

To be honest, I don't know if RHF or CB would even entertain such a format. I say that this kind of transparency where you see the key people behind the keyboard is the best kind of sunlight on these things. Also, I know that I have no reason to hold back on any tough questioning.

Ultimately I don't think it will happen, but I hope it does.

 

[MnFish1]

I would like to see said company to say what's truly in the bottle without having to get on your livestream. They said they would produce what's in the bottle to a message they sent a member from R2R, but have yet to produce it.

Data, and not talk is what the majority want to see. We have seen data from the OP, lets see data from said company

Franks are you going to hold two little fishies - to the same standards - etc etc (not picking on them - pick any aquarium suppliment) - if so all good - there shoudl be multiple threads. This to me - is a pile on- WITHOUT AN ADEQUATE RESPONSE FROM THE COMANY - which will hopefully happen

 

[Eagle_Steve]

I get all of this but if a manufacturer does not feel comfortable in this format (due to the reasons I have put forth earlier), or for any other reason, then I think a livestream where intelligent and reasonable people can ask questions and challenge answers is both another option and better than not hearing from them at all. Especially if those invited have the credentials and knowledge to speak and challenge.

And, as far as transcript, it is right there available in every YouTube video for you to read, examine, download, post, etc. The moment it is finished, there you have it.

To be honest, I don't know if RHF or CB would even entertain such a format. I say that this kind of transparency where you see the key people behind the keyboard is the best kind of sunlight on these things. Also, I know that I have no reason to hold back on any tough questioning.

Ultimately I don't think it will happen, but I hope it does.

I am pointing to something like this.

@Randy Holmes-Farley @taricha sorry for using your names here, but need to get my point accross.

These are not actual questions or answers, just trying to get what is in my thick redneck head out lol.

Randy to UWC: So, UWC's product Vibrant tests out that it an algaecide. The same types used by another company. What are your thoughts on this?

UWC to Randy: We do not agree with that and here is XXXXXXXX for proof.

Taricha to UWC: So you can provide the testing results, the process and everything with a labs seal of approval for this?

Again, names are only there to make what is in my head make sense lol. Anyone that knows me knows I aint the best at getting things out right the first time lol.

 

[jda]

UWC said no, so who cares? They are going to come out with something and I would bet a $1000 frag that it will be controlled on whatever media they decide is best and there will be no opportunity for anything beyond their statement. I would not waste too many more brain cells on this...

 

[Cell]

I get all of this but if a manufacturer does not feel comfortable in this format (due to the reasons I have put forth earlier), or for any other reason, then I think a livestream where intelligent and reasonable people can ask questions and challenge answers is both another option and better than not hearing from them at all. Especially if those invited have the credentials and knowledge to speak and challenge.

And, as far as transcript, it is right there available in every YouTube video for you to read, examine, download, post, etc. The moment it is finished, there you have it.

To be honest, I don't know if RHF or CB would even entertain such a format. I say that this kind of transparency where you see the key people behind the keyboard is the best kind of sunlight on these things. Also, I know that I have no reason to hold back on any tough questioning.

Ultimately I don't think it will happen, but I hope it does.

Maybe also a little bit for self serving reasons too?

I think a response from UWC is warranted and deserved here on the forum where the research was originally reported and discussed and can continue doing so.

 

[Sean Clark]

I don't think anyone wants to see company x make an appearance on platform y to only dodge the questions asked of them and talk in circles. I think people want honesty and transparency. I don't think any of that will ever happen. Hopefully I am wrong.

 

[ScottB]

Warning: Use Vibrant at your own risk

It does not appear to be what UWC claims. Data clearly suggest it is an algaecide identical to Algaefix (see thread below) IMO, this as a very serious breach of trust from a company that has insisted it is not an algaecide. It is also a clear breach of the Reef2Reef terms of service (about...

www.reef2reef.com

Oh my. Randy is throwing some heat.

 

[ScottB]

All,

Forgive me for admittedly being a bit lazy and not reading the 22 pages of discourse here... However, if in fact Vibrant contains an algaecide (seemingly it does), what other options do we have for species such as Valonia? My emeralds don't touch it, nor do my fish... My phosphates are nearly undetectable (ULNS) and the species of BA I have aggressively grows, even in the absence of Po4 (I'm theorizing it may grow off of silicates)..... Either way, Vibrant has been the only "effective" method for me in the past...

Yeah valonia does not need any excess nutrient like other algae. I would suggest API Algeafix. Or, for $20 more, Vibrant.

Just be warned that the stuff does seem to accumulate and can come with (sometimes) very adverse consequences.

We are all riled up (or, at least this is my peeve) because the Vibrant labeling lulls users into a complacent use of the product without any concern of a possible overdose. It is nearly impossible to over dose bacteria. They just starve, die and get skimmed.

 

[muzikalmatt]

Maybe also a little bit for self serving reasons too?

I think a response from UWC is warranted and deserved here on the forum where the research was originally reported and discussed and can continue doing so.

Agreed. Just sounds like someone trying to monetize the situation.

I wouldn't expect any open dialogue from UWC though. If they were going to respond to this thread, they would have done so already. The fact that they haven't says a lot imo. "The silence is deafening" as they say.

 

[LRT]

I would like to see said company to say what's truly in the bottle without having to get on your livestream. They said they would produce what's in the bottle to a message they sent a member from R2R, but have yet to produce it.

Data, and not talk is what the majority want to see. We have seen data from the OP, lets see data from said company.

Not sure i could have said it any better. And I think your correct thats what we are all waiting for now.

That is a possible interpretation, and there certainly are bacterial algaecides, but if the NMR is accurate, it is not a bacterial product. That material is not a natural product produced by any bacteria. Perhaps they were told that by a supplier, but that's random speculation.

This is level headed and reasonable. Cant wait to see response and what our pros make of it.

So you would not like to see a livestream where RHF and/or CB and someone from the company are together on the program and having a good discussion? Seems like that would be one of the best ways to cut through all of this.

No It should be here and it should be direct response to data given in this thread. Not sure how else it could go down. Real data for our credentialed reefing peers to review and report on so we can all make our own decision.

I will say though. If it turns out @taricha work is 100% correct. Id like to see whoever made this product agree to a Joe Rogan podcast/jui jitsu type match. This could be the only forgivable outcome for me

 

[Terence]

Maybe also a little bit for self serving reasons too?

Actually, I believe this would be great content that many would appreciate - whatever the livestream venue. If someone can show me how, with less than 1000 subs on the channel it can be self-serving for Mark and I at this point, I would love to know.

Agreed. Just sounds like someone trying to monetize the situation.

I wouldn't expect any open dialogue from UWC though. If they were going to respond to this thread, they would have done so already. The fact that they haven't says a lot imo. "The silence is deafening" as they say.

Again, maybe they do not want to use this venue for some of the reasons I pointed out. And, as stated above, how do we monetize this at this point?

No It should be here and it should be direct response to data given in this thread. Not sure how else it could go down. Real data for our credentialed reefing peers to review and report on so we can all make our own decision.

Agreed, it should be here. Who said its a mutually exclusive situation? That said, again, if the company would not post here for whatever reason, you would not want them to take hard questions on anyones livestream, not from some streamer that doesnt push the boundaries but on a channel that would also feature questions from say taricha, Craig Bingman, RHF, or Jim Welsh? I don't think it will happen, but if it did it seems to me like that would be a good thing.

I guess I should just leave it at that.

 

[jda]

As a pertinent tangent to this discussion, and to not get bogged down here, do any of you smart folks want to help people understand how polyquat works in a reef tank? I started, but I am sure that I butchered it and it needs help.

How Polyquat Works?

In light of the recent concern with Vibrant containing polyquat and a massive usage, it might be a good idea to discuss how it works. I have studied this pretty hard and asked some experts, even though very little about saltwater and nothing about aquariums seems to exist beyond anecdotes. I...

www.reef2reef.com

 

[ScottB]

As a pertinent tangent to this discussion, and to not get bogged down here, do any of you smart folks want to help people understand how polyquat works in a reef tank? I started, but I am sure that I butchered it and it needs help.

How Polyquat Works?

In light of the recent concern with Vibrant containing polyquat and a massive usage, it might be a good idea to discuss how it works. I have studied this pretty hard and asked some experts, even though very little about saltwater and nothing about aquariums seems to exist beyond anecdotes. I...

www.reef2reef.com

I never use all caps, but once the true contents were confirmed (TY @taricha), THIS IS EXACTLY HOW I WISHED THE DIALOGUE WOULD GO!

Caps off now.

 

[otzhorse]

I literally just bought my first bottle ever of this stuff. Haven't used it but man that's a waste of $27. This forum is awesome!

 

[TheCoralExchange]

I've been watching this stuff nuke out tanks for years and have adverse reactions for nearly everyone that has used it. I always knew there was for sure something more than "bacteria" in the bottle, because no bacteria would give such a rapid response and screw stuff up.

The guy I think his name was Justin was very vague, and then once he got picked up by the likes of BRS who will market anything for a buck, more and more people picked it up and the problems just rolled in even heavier...

Big problem with this hobby is the secrecy surrounding everything. I've been trying to dose my own trace element solutions and the information is so vague. It's go buy this or that, don't bother to understand just buy and do as someone says.... It's sad when something is entirely about money and not the good of the hobby/industry in general.

 

[Eric R.]

I literally just bought my first bottle ever of this stuff. Haven't used it but man that's a waste of $27. This forum is awesome!

If you're no longer interested in using the product, you can try returning it for a refund. Seems reasonable to me.

 

[ingchr1]

I know. The bottle and website do not match and considering the active ingredient is at about 3.5 percent it seems like they add it as an “other”.

It just brings up additional questions.

Why state RO/DI on the website, but call it Other Ingredients on the bottle? Has the bottle label also changed? Mine is from 2019.

Why change the website from Other Ingredients (RO/DI Water) to just RO/DI Water?

Why remove what the vinegar is in there for?

Website 9/19/20
From Wayback Machine, not sure if it may have been different before this. Pages were not loading.

Website Today

Bottle bought 11/5/19

 

[Sean Clark]

Vibrant is a "New" case closed. Four words in.

 

[LRT]

There's been a couple times I've been lost on words and had to walk away here. Changing ingredients listing on the bottle though? Why? Vibrant must have an explanation for that!

 

[otzhorse]

If you're no longer interested in using the product, you can try returning it for a refund. Seems reasonable to me.

It will likely happen, assuming saltwateraquarium.com will take it back. I just got it yesterday so it shouldn't be a problem I wouldn't think.