What you know, you know. Think here among many people who take the time to know this premise may be truer. Than among the imo much larger population of reefers who don’t know, and depend on half truths, myths, and they mix up good advice from different ppl who use dif methods, which leads them to get frustrated and give up.
I think it is a bad idea to remove ich from your tank. Those are the tanks that have all the disease problems. They also can't feed fresh or live food, can't use NSW and have to quarantine every wet thing that ever goes into those tanks. Thats why there are no old quarantined tanks.
These are on surfaces in the tank as cysts (eggs). They are out in the open ripe for predation. Why are there no studies on predators of this stage?
This is a free swimming stage and what people hope that the UV will kill (and the protomonts).
academic.oup.com
If we think phytoplankton is consumed by our aquariums by filter feeders and such then why is it so laughable to assume that the ich free swimming stages are somehow eschewed by those same filter feeders?
Cleaner shrimp, cleaner fish on the big side.
From:
FA164/FA164: Cryptocaryon irritans Infections (Marine White Spot Disease) in Fish
University of Florida, Institute of Food and Agricultural Sciences Extension outreach is a partnership between state, federal, and county governments to provide scientific knowledge and expertise to the public. The University of Florida (UF), together with Florida A&M University (FAMU)...edis.ifas.ufl.edu
Cyst Stage:
These are on surfaces in the tank as cysts (eggs). They are out in the open ripe for predation. Why are there no studies on predators of this stage?
Infective Stage:
This is a free swimming stage and what people hope that the UV will kill (and the protomonts).
Phytoplankton in contrast:
Phytoplankton in a changing world: cell size and elemental stoichiometry
Abstract. Global increases in atmospheric CO2 and temperature are associated with changes in ocean chemistry and circulation, altering light and nutrient regime
If we think phytoplankton is consumed by our aquariums by filter feeders and such then why is it so laughable to assume that the ich free swimming stages are somehow eschewed by those same filter feeders?
This doesn't even go into Paul's notion about immune response and natural defenses in the fish themselves.
Since I started this thread a couple of years ago, my Ozone generator is still broken and I have not used it in over 3 years before I moved here.
See above statement. I do still use my diatom filter maybe once or twice a year for an hour or so to stir up my gravel and sometimes when I collect NSW because I collect it from the surf and it is full of mud and chopped up seaweed.
Lots to discuss here. The study you're talking about (the 6 month one - that was done 'in a lab' - (a QT tank). A couple groups of Fish (1that had documented immunity to CI - i.e. that survived an infection and another were a control group (no Immunity)) Both groups were exposed to the same amount of CI - then mortality - as well as parasite 'burden' was measured over time.
None of my comments are 100% correct. That would make me perfect and I am not. There is an unbelievable amount of information I don't know. Many things I have been wrong about and thousands of mistakes I have and always will make.
This is too simplistic.
If they have immunity from the wild or even as they move through the systems, then they have immunity. How long that immunity lasts is unknown. The question I have is if they have immunity then why bother to QT, and when I say QT I am assuming medicated QT. How would medicating a fish that has been innoculated be of any value other than to maybe relieve symptoms. Relieving symptoms has it's value, that is why we have pain medications, because they help your body calm down to start healing. With that we would have to as aquarists weigh the relieving of symptoms vs. the movement to a stress free environment.
Affect how? Positively or negatively? If the treatment blunts the immunity and only provides partial immunity then I think that that pretty answers why not to use the medication. If the treatment helps with immunity, then I am skeptical and would want to see some evidence of that mechanism.
In my thread about 8 or so months ago I bought a fish on line. It was a copperband and the only fish I ever bought online and I threw it in my tank. That fish as you said, was collected, swum around in a canoe, was held at the wholesaler probably in south Africa for a few days, spent 36 hours in a bag coming to the US, then spent time at the wholesaler here in the States, then back on a plane in a box for many hours to my airport, then more time in a box to me.
That 6 months was from Burgess, not me. I would imagine, and I am guessing that as long as the fish is in quarantine, the longer it stays away from parasites, the weaker it's immunity to them it will become. I don't think 6 months is a magical number. But if you quarantine that fish for any amount of time, then put it in a quarantined tank where there are no parasites, that fish will eventually lose whatever immunity it has. A fish with no immunity is not a healthy fish. I have a very good friend with bone cancer. He goes for chemo and radiation all the time and has an impaired immunity.
Copper is a poison that will kill bacteria. Door knobs used to be made of copper for that reason. Copper is to expensive now to make doorknobs out of. Fish with no stomach bacteria are almost dead fish and that also kills immunity because stomach bacteria control immunity in us and fish.
Thanks - I agree - it works for you. Like I've said 1000 times - I never said it 'didn't work'.. What I do works 'for me'. Its not that either one of us are 'right' or 'wrong' that what we do works - necessarily. I try to be succinct - but often long-winded. My guess is that there are multiple things that have led to your success having nothing to do with clams etc - but rather your meticulous record keeping, your knowledge, your experience, your strong desire to succeed in this hobby, your relative low stocking density compared to a lot of new hobbyists and probably a lot of other reasons. I probably have my degree of success because of a host of other reasons. For example - I wouldn't say 'I have had a purple tang for 12 years - he is fat, happy, doesnt have HLLE - etc - and I feed him/her flake food and rare LFS - so that means Nori is not necessary (or boiled spinach, etc) I haven't found it necessary - probably becasue the tang is getting what it needs from the tank and rock. BTW - nor would I say - you don't need to feed white worms - because I dont.
I do want to respond to this. Every individual sentence you write up there is true. Stringing them together seems to make the case that copper destroys all bacteria. However, that is not the case. Just because each 'part' is true - does not mean the conclusion is true. In fact Copper doesn't even kill all CI - it just kills enough such that fish are not overwhelmed. Also, in fact, the levels of copper in a QT bath do not kill 'all bacteria' in the water, on the rock, etc - thus how could it possibly kill all bacteria, etc - in the fish itself?
In my thread about 8 or so months ago I bought a fish on line. It was a copperband and the only fish I ever bought online and I threw it in my tank. That fish as you said, was collected, swum around in a canoe, was held at the wholesaler probably in south Africa for a few days, spent 36 hours in a bag coming to the US, then spent time at the wholesaler here in the States, then back on a plane in a box for many hours to my airport, then more time in a box to me.
That 6 months was from Burgess, not me. I would imagine, and I am guessing that as long as the fish is in quarantine, the longer it stays away from parasites, the weaker it's immunity to them it will become. I don't think 6 months is a magical number. But if you quarantine that fish for any amount of time, then put it in a quarantined tank where there are no parasites, that fish will eventually lose whatever immunity it has. A fish with no immunity is not a healthy fish. I have a very good friend with bone cancer. He goes for chemo and radiation all the time and has an impaired immunity.
Copper is a poison that will kill bacteria. Door knobs used to be made of copper for that reason. Copper is to expensive now to make doorknobs out of. Fish with no stomach bacteria are almost dead fish and that also kills immunity because stomach bacteria control immunity in us and fish.
