The Other Way to Run a Reef Tank (no Quarantine)

[Paul B]

I have no idea how much copper it takes to kill bacteria. Depending on who you ask there are about 21,000 different types of bacteria that we know of. I bet every one of them are killed with a different amount of copper so good luck with that.

There are also, depending on who you ask, 31,000 different species of fish and I am also sure it takes a different amount of copper to kill them or the different parasites in them and no one else does either so your question can not be answered in my lifetime as I am old.

Also I am sure that different temperatures and salinity effect the time and amount it takes copper to kill anything along with the purity of the copper.

This hobby is to full of variables to answer specific questions like that. Suffice to say we know copper kills bacteria, viruses and parasites on surfaces and fish. But exactly where in the intestinal tract is the specific bacteria you are trying to kill?

A fishes intestine snakes through the fish and I would assume the bacteria or parasites in the beginning of the tract are exposed to stronger copper while the parasites and bacteria near the end of the intestine will be exposed to more dilute copper. Also how many viruses are in the fish because bacteria and parasites are also constantly killed by viruses. While we are killing bacteria, viruses and parasites in the fish, the fishes own immune system is trying to kill those things even though the copper is suppressing it. But how much is the copper suppressing the immune system?

Do you know the answer to any of these things? I don't.

Quote:
If quarantining is so good why do MANY successful reefers eschew it?

This is an easy question. Successful hobbiests have learned how to keep their fish healthy and immune just like they are in the sea. Also successful hobbiests have "old" running, healthy tanks. So far, in decades I have been trying to find even "one" healthy, quarantined tank where the fish only die of old age are spawning and never have been sick. Just one.

There is a Latin term used in chemistry and medical texts called ex juvantibus. It means that you can make an inference as to what the disease is by what treatment is used.

In other words if you don't know what the disease is, you can get a clue to it by observing if the treatment is successful.

That is also why I keep saying my reef is very old and disease free. Maybe I don't know the exact mechanisms for it, but the methods I successfully use allude to them being correct.

I also think we should kill this thread as I have a headache and am tired of answering the same question in different ways.

 

[bam123]

I dip corals and inspect heavily. I never quarantine fish. EVER. I buy healthy fish that are eating and feed garlic. ALWAYS does the trick. If you want to quarentine, good for you. I have a backup sterilizer that I bought many years ago, that I never use. Bring on the haters. I don't give a ------- )

 

[Marinenewbie]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)


I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

Wow. Very interesting.

 

[ssunthar]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)


I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

Very insightful sharing Paul, thank you very much. Any thoughts on corals?

 

[Paul B]

I never did anything to corals except acclimate them for half an hour or so, then put them in the tank.

 

[Paul B]

In a week and a half my reef will be running non stop for 50 years. Now can call my method a success. I realize many people try to downplay my method because they say there is no scientific studies on it. You may find it hard even finding a 50 year old scientist much less one that has been studying this for that long.

What researchers do in a lab doesn't have much bearing on what happens in a tank or the sea.
The big researchers on parasites in the 70s, (Burgess and Axelrod) just focused on parasite life cycles and how temperature and chemicals affected them.

They never mentioned immunity because at that time 50 years ago, there was very little information about fish immunity. Now we know a lot more about it and are realizing for fish and us, immunity is more important than elimination.

Covid virus has also taught us a lot about other diseases and a couple of things that may help my wife's MS. If you throw billions of dollars at something, you find some things out.

We can't kill the Corona Virus, but the vaccine makes us (hopefully) immune to it. (I had my shots )

If Covid was a normal Human disease many people would already be immune to it. But it didn't come from Humans (depending on who you want to believe) It came from animals so no one had an immunity.

The Bubonic Plague killed most of Europe three times for the same reason. It started on rodents, gerbils actually, not people. (when all the gerbils croaked, it jumped to rats) Humans had no immunity to it. Now we do to an extent because almost all of us are descended from Europeans or Asians. Some of us are of course related to Ancient Aliens and if you ever watched "War of the Worlds" the original not the one starring Tom Cruise, you would know that the common cold can kill Aliens. ;Smuggrin

 

[MnFish1]

In a week and a half my reef will be running non stop for 50 years. Now can call my method a success. I realize many people try to downplay my method because they say there is no scientific studies on it. You may find it hard even finding a 50 year old scientist much less one that has been studying this for that long.

What researchers do in a lab doesn't have much bearing on what happens in a tank or the sea.
The big researchers on parasites in the 70s, (Burgess and Axelrod) just focused on parasite life cycles and how temperature and chemicals affected them.

They never mentioned immunity because at that time 50 years ago, there was very little information about fish immunity. Now we know a lot more about it and are realizing for fish and us, immunity is more important than elimination.

Covid virus has also taught us a lot about other diseases and a couple of things that may help my wife's MS. If you throw billions of dollars at something, you find some things out.

We can't kill the Corona Virus, but the vaccine makes us (hopefully) immune to it. (I had my shots )

If Covid was a normal Human disease many people would already be immune to it. But it didn't come from Humans (depending on who you want to believe) It came from animals so no one had an immunity.

The Bubonic Plague killed most of Europe three times for the same reason. It started on rodents, gerbils actually, not people. (when all the gerbils croaked, it jumped to rats) Humans had no immunity to it. Now we do to an extent because almost all of us are descended from Europeans or Asians. Some of us are of course related to Ancient Aliens and if you ever watched "War of the Worlds" the original not the one starring Tom Cruise, you would know that the common cold can kill Aliens. ;Smuggrin

Congrats - your method is a success . 50 years is a long time. But - it did remind me of something (since you decided to criticise science). One of your arguments for success is there aren't hundreds of other tanks that use QT that are 40+ years old. Well - my counter point is that 'there aren't hundreds of tanks out there that use your method that are 40+ years old'. So - youre right - we can conclude your method is a (great) success - For you. Nonetheless - you have a great tank - and a great dedication to this hobby and helping others. Thanks and congrats for that as well

 

[bam123]

In a week and a half my reef will be running non stop for 50 years. Now can call my method a success. I realize many people try to downplay my method because they say there is no scientific studies on it. You may find it hard even finding a 50 year old scientist much less one that has been studying this for that long.

What researchers do in a lab doesn't have much bearing on what happens in a tank or the sea.
The big researchers on parasites in the 70s, (Burgess and Axelrod) just focused on parasite life cycles and how temperature and chemicals affected them.

They never mentioned immunity because at that time 50 years ago, there was very little information about fish immunity. Now we know a lot more about it and are realizing for fish and us, immunity is more important than elimination.

Covid virus has also taught us a lot about other diseases and a couple of things that may help my wife's MS. If you throw billions of dollars at something, you find some things out.

We can't kill the Corona Virus, but the vaccine makes us (hopefully) immune to it. (I had my shots )

If Covid was a normal Human disease many people would already be immune to it. But it didn't come from Humans (depending on who you want to believe) It came from animals so no one had an immunity.

The Bubonic Plague killed most of Europe three times for the same reason. It started on rodents, gerbils actually, not people. (when all the gerbils croaked, it jumped to rats) Humans had no immunity to it. Now we do to an extent because almost all of us are descended from Europeans or Asians. Some of us are of course related to Ancient Aliens and if you ever watched "War of the Worlds" the original not the one starring Tom Cruise, you would know that the common cold can kill Aliens. ;Smuggrin

In regards to your wife's MS... DO the wahl protocol and try the FASTING MIMICKING DIET. Valter Longo, Ph.D. on Fasting-Mimicking Diet & Fasting for Longevity, Cancer & Multiple Sclerosis - YouTube

 

[Paul B]

Correct there are no 40 year old quarantined tanks. Are there any 20 year old quarantrined tanks or 10 year old tanks (which to me is a new tank)

I am only asking for tanks of that age where the fish have never been sick and die of old age.
It may not be scientific, but it's better.

If you were stranded on an Island would you rather be with a scientist or a guy who could build you a flat screen TY from a blue leg hermit crab, half a banana and a right front fender from a 1955 Oldsmobile Starfire?

 

[Subsea]

Congrats - your method is a success . 50 years is a long time. But - it did remind me of something (since you decided to criticise science). One of your arguments for success is there aren't hundreds of other tanks that use QT that are 40+ years old. Well - my counter point is that 'there aren't hundreds of tanks out there that use your method that are 40+ years old'. So - youre right - we can conclude your method is a (great) success - For you. Nonetheless - you have a great tank - and a great dedication to this hobby and helping others. Thanks and congrats for that as well

@MnFish1

You remind me of a broken record. Sorry you can’t enjoy the celebration. I have maintained tanks the same way for 50 years, but the one I now have is 25 years set up. I guess success is how you define it for yourself.

 

[MnFish1]

@MnFish1

You remind me of a broken record. Sorry you can’t enjoy the celebration. I have maintained tanks the same way for 50 years, but the one I now have is 25 years set up. I guess success is how you define it for yourself.

Maybe you didnt read my post. I congratulated Paul 2 times. And I agree with you - exactly as I Implied in my post - success is how you define it for yourself. I mean - did you seriously not read the last sentence I wrote: "Nonetheless - you have a great tank - and a great dedication to this hobby and helping others. Thanks and congrats for that as well" - I sincerely mean that. It seems like you have a different agenda than I do....

 

[WVNed]

Well my tanks aren't 50 years old, Or 2 even. They did just go through a 5 day power outage.
I am happy with them.
I have never felt the need to QT. If you do then I think you should. Stating it cant be done without it is silly to me though.

 

[MnFish1]

Correct there are no 40 year old quarantined tanks. Are there any 20 year old quarantrined tanks or 10 year old tanks (which to me is a new tank)

I am only asking for tanks of that age where the fish have never been sick and die of old age.
It may not be scientific, but it's better.

If you were stranded on an Island would you rather be with a scientist or a guy who could build you a flat screen TY from a blue leg hermit crab, half a banana and a right front fender from a 1955 Oldsmobile Starfire?

LOL - as I wrote originally - which was kind of 'tongue-in-cheek'. If you're going to complain about science - I will make the point that your tank is 1 in a million (of any method). There are few (if any) tanks of your age - so the age itself doesn't prove the method (or help disprove other methods). Again - having said having a tank of that age is testimony to your dedication, maintenance, and excellence in the hobby. Congrats!

EDIT: I would not be foolish enough to get stranded on a deserted island. My guess is that for survival , one would need both a good scientist as well as someone who could build the hermit Flat screen TV

 

[MnFish1]

Well my tanks aren't 50 years old, Or 2 even. They did just go through a 5 day power outage.
I am happy with them.
I have never felt the need to QT. If you do then I think you should. Stating it cant be done without it is silly to me though.

Nice tank. I dont know if you're referring to me - but - I never said anyone should (or should not) QT. I see no difference personally between the methods.

 

[mickeysreef <*))))<]

***knocking on paulies conch shell**

If you were stranded on an Island would you rather be with a scientist or a guy who could build you a flat screen TY from a blue leg hermit crab, half a banana and a right front fender from a 1955 Oldsmobile Starfire?

Are we really talking gilligan's island now? i choose to be stranded with ginger and maryann, paul you keep the captain and gilligan. I guess we'll throw the professor in the ocean and see if he can scuba.

Wasnt maryann the professor's assistant, in that case, yes please!

 

[Subsea]

Nice tank. I dont know if you're referring to me - but - I never said anyone should (or should not) QT. I see no difference personally between the methods.

“I see no differrence personally between the methods.”

what is all the back & forth about?

I see a big differrence on the amount of burden it places on a new reef keeper. I see it as establishing a fear of the unknown and a need to sterilize and treat everything with snake oil additives.

Our immune systems are our best defense for long term health and so it is with the inhabitants of our reef tanks.

STRESS COMPROMISES IMMUNE SYSTEM IN PEAOPE AND IN FISH.

 

[PBnJOnWheat]

The other way to run a reef tank (No Quarantine)

I was asked by my friend Humblefish to start a thread on my practices of running a tank with no quarantine, hospital tanks, medications, dipping or almost anything else.

It is "not" just to take a fish from a store and drop it in your reef because that fish will probably die. You may not see many spots on fish in a store because just about all stores use medications in their tanks to suppress the parasites. They have to because they get new fish all the time from all over the world and they can't change all the water and sterilize their tanks in between shipments. But all fish are infected in a store and even in the sea. They swim in a soup of parasites, viruses and bacteria, some good, some not so good.

In the sea those pathogens are kept in check by each other as viruses prey on parasites and bacteria and other forces such as things exuded from corals and tend to keep everything in check. Of course they all prey on fish.

But fish have been around almost as long as those things and they evolved long ago to live in harmony with all of them. Fish eat parasites with every meal and those parasites are processed in the fishes kidney among other places and that causes the fish to exude antiparisitic and antibacterial properties in their slime. They constantly do this and it keeps parasites and bacteria from killing the fish even though some parasites will get through to sample some fish flesh.


Anyway, that is the basis for my method that I slowly learned starting in about 1973 when I had to keep fish in copper continuously as we all did. (20 pennies to the gallon) Our tanks were not reefs, we fed flakes, changed the water to much and took out the rocks and dead corals to bleach them whenever they turned green which was almost weekly. The fish were always stressed and it was hard to keep even damsels.

Then I started feeding things other than flakes, things like frozen clams, pieces of fish and live blackworms. In 7 weeks my blue devils spawned and kept spawning for 7 years. Spawning damsels is no great Whop but in those days few people could keep them alive for a few weeks.

I gradually learned that bacteria and parasites would not kill my fish as long as I didn't medicate them. It was backward thinking but remember there was no internet and I didn't even know anyone with a salt tank so I was on my own.

When I added a fish it normally would get spots and sometimes die, but most of the time the spots receded and the fish was fine and didn't get sick when I added a new fish.

That was how I learned my method which is not really a method but a lack of a method.

With my method you can not quarantine because that short circuits the process. I actually want parasites and bacteria as that is what the fish was swimming with in the sea a week before.

I just put the fish in my tank and normally the fish starts eating right away and is fine. About half the time the fish will show a few spots but they are very few and disappear in a day or two. Yes they finished their life cycle on that fish and dropped off to infect something else, but they can't because those fish are constantly exposed to parasites so they are immune.

The things I do “not” do is quarantine.

I do not ever feed dry foods such as flakes or pellets as those foods are sterile.

I do not suck every bit of detritus out of my tank


I do however always feed something with live bacteria in it such as frozen foods.

I feed whole foods with guts such as clams, mysis, mussels and I use LRS foods which is a commercial food which I consider the best. But I still want to give the fish something that I know has living bacteria in it. I try to feed a few times a week some live worms but sometimes I can’t. Where I live now I can’t get them but I do raise live whiteworms which live in dirt. I bought a few of them years ago and that batch is still living and reproducing. I like the worms because of the living bacteria in their guts and the dirt they are living in. Some people that have immune tanks never use live worms so they may not be necessary, but I use them when I can. These things need not be fed every day, but at least occasionally. But all foods should have bacteria in it and if you feed nothing but commercial food, I am not sure how much living bacteria is in that because you don’t know how old it is or what temperature it was stored at.



If you have access to a salt water beach, collect a little mud and sprinkle it around the tank. That is for bacterial diversity. If you can’t get that, you can use garden soil with no pesticides or fertilizer.

(I did not invent that, it was “Robert Straughn” The Father of salt water fish keeping.)

The idea is that I want parasites living in the tank along with the fish. They will keep reproducing and trying to infect fish but they will fail.

I know the argument that there is much more water in the sea than in a tank and the parasites are more numerous. But that is of no consequence because the fishes immune system will get as strong as it needs to be to repel parasites and the more parasites there are, the stronger the immune system.


If you quarantine fish, there will be nothing for the fish to become immune to and any slight infection will crash the tank. Fish are not delicate creatures that need coddling and they almost never get sick. They have a fantastic immune system as long as we don’t try to short circuit it.

I can’t remember the last time I lost a fish to disease but it was probably in the 80s. Virtually all of my fish only die of old age or jumping out. I do lose fish due to my stupidity like if I buy something that I can’t properly feed like shrimpfish, twin spot gobies, orange spotted filefish etc. My tank is not set up for those fish and I should not buy them. But everything else, with no exception live long enough for me to get tired of them and I give them away or they die of old age.

I do not like clownfish but one day about 27 years ago I bought a baby of what I thought was a red hawkfish. It turned out to be a Fireclown and I still have it. She also spawns a few times a week as all my paired fish do as all healthy fish carry eggs all the time.


If you have a tank full of quarantined fish, I am not sure how you could get those fish immune because that quarantining may have destroyed the immune system of those fish. It would be a long process because the fish would have to be infected, and then cured for them to become immune and you may lose some fish.


It would be much easier to start an immune tank from the start. Remember, if you see some parasites, think of that as a good thing and not something that you need to dip or treat. Yes, you may lost some fish in the beginning but your fish will become immune to just about everything and you will never need medications or disease forums. Many fish die in quarantine or right after so that is also not a panacea.
I did not mention parameters because IMO they are not that important for fish health. Corals, yes, but not fish. My nitrates were 160 for years and I never had a fish die and they continued to spawn.
This is my method which has worked well for decades and I never lose fish to disease which is something I think we all strive for.

This is the way

 

[fishybizzness]

I agree! I think that quarantine should always be considered "The other way"!

 

[MnFish1]

what is all the back & forth about?

1. I have posted many times - I dont QT.
2. The back and forth today was merely a comment that it was implied/stated that scientists that have studied these issues are somehow unimportant - I disagree.
3. IMHO. There is no correct 'method'. I see no difference between Paul's method and Humblefish's method. I have yet to hear any logical discussion as to why one method is better or worse.

 

[Subsea]

1. I have posted many times - I dont QT.
2. The back and forth today was merely a comment that it was implied/stated that scientists that have studied these issues are somehow unimportant - I disagree.
3. IMHO. There is no correct 'method'. I see no difference between Paul's method and Humblefish's method. I have yet to hear any logical discussion as to why one method is better or worse.

[3. IMHO. There is no correct 'method'. I see no difference between Paul's method and Humblefish's method. I have yet to hear any logical discussion as to why one method is better or worse.]

Less stress, expense and work on operator. Is that a logical goal, if the results are the same.